Import duties with Global Shipping Program

[lapidary2]

I'm sure that sellers who ship internationally are unlikely to be happy with the Global Shipping Program.

Once upon a time, the item was shipped and the buyer may or may not have been stiffed by local customs and excise. Of course, in those days, some sellers quite unjustifiably got negative feedback from the buyer. Now, buyers will be discouraged from bidding when they see the true cost of items when duties are added. Of course, financially eBay and the seller lose out, if I am correct.

This could lead to an interesting philosophical discussion but I think I can head that off at the pass by telling you that some of the charges are unlawful because in the case of some items, there are no import duties to pay and yet eBay is still raising charges.

For example, gold coins and bullion are duty free imported into the UK or indeed into the EU:

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pa...

Similarly, rough rock for lapidary use is considered raw materials in the UK and is duty free but eBay also collects import duty on that.

I have contacted someone in eBay UK and they have told me that they will get me a reply on these matters from the Global Shipping program within 72 hours. I told them that if they don't sort it out in 72 hours I will contact the Commissioners of HM Revenue and Customs in the UK to tell them about eBay's unlawful behaviour.

This may be pure incompetence on the part of eBay but it could just be fraud.

[lapidary2]

A further reading of the Global Shipping Program rules, whatever eBay charges for duty, it keeps whether it is correct or not. So, any buyer signing up for this abomination is helping eBay line its pockets when the level of bidding will be depressed for items that would normally be of interest to international bidders and the seller loses out.

It is likely that eBay's crooked bean counters worked out that they would make more from this duty scam than they would lose in reduced fees from sellers.

It's still a fraud as far as I am concerned and I am going to raise it with the HM Revenue and Customs in the UK.

[reallynicestamps]

whatever eBay charges for duty, it keeps whether it is correct or not.

Those customs and taxes are handed over to the nation that they are collected for.

Pitney Bowes (which operates the Global Shipping Program for eBay) are sub-contracted by hundreds of nations to do just that and have been for many decades.

However, I can understand that from time to time they will levy taxes and duty in error.

Stop for a moment. Keep in mind that an item that is not dutiable may still be taxable. We Canadians for example pay no duty on "Made in the USA"  items , but will pay sales taxes on those items of between 5% and 15% depending on which province we inhabit.

If such an error is made, a Canadian (and probably any other nationality) can apply to the Canadian Border Services Agency (who got the money from PB) for a refund.

It's not fast, but it eventually gets refunded.

The big problem is that PB does not provide a clear invoice detailing what parts of their 'import fees" are duty, or tax, or shipping/service fee.

The buyer won't get the service fee back. That was for work done. Badly, but done.

[lapidary2]

I have now contacted HM Customs and Revenue in the UK.

They confirm that some countries have an arrangement to collect duties at source and pay directly to the UK authorities and confirm that the USA is NOT one of those countries. They further confirm that irrespective of what eBay may have collected in the USA, any UK citizen importing into the UK will be required to pay the tax and duty applicable to the item and a charge will be raised by HM Customs and Revenue as appropriate and confirm that there is neither duty or tax or gold coins, bullion or rough rock required for lapidary purposes, to name just those we discussed. The duty become payable at the point of entry into the UK.

Since the charges raised by eBay and collected by eBay are not collected on behalf of the UK tax authorities, it necessarily folows that the UK tax authorities will not be refunding duties it has not received in the first place.

I next suggested that I could buy a watch on eBay's US site and was told that irrespective of what eBay may have charged me under the guise of import duties, I would be required to pay the appropriate customs duty - I believe 2.5% - and VAT on the item, including duty and postage at the rate of 20%.

All in all, what is going on here is a gigantic fraud and fraudulent misrepresentation by eBay and I will be raising the matter with the FBI.

[reallynicestamps]

Phone back,

Ask the same questions.

Ask the clerk's name.

Ask that the clerk send you a letter (preferably registered) with that information.

Chances are you will not get a name, won't get a letter, and will get different information.

Frankly, I think the clerk was making it all up.

Also, eBay is not collecting these monies. Pitney Bowes is.

This is who Pitney Bowes are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitney_Bowes

But that is sort of a corporate puff piece, as Wikipedia actually says.

http://myaccount.pitneybowes.com/services/Mailing-and-Shipping/International-Mail-Services/index.sht...

This one is an honest advertisement of how they manage international shipping services.

[reallynicestamps]

And of course, you are also assuming that PB (who are not eBay but a sub-contractor for eBay) are a US company.

The parent is, but it is probable that PB has a "PitneyBowesUK" branch properly registered as a UK company and .... collecting UK VAT and duty and remitting them.

That the duty and VAT are collected in the USA instead of on the dock at Liverpool is irrelevant, since the shipment would be in a container shipped 'in bond'.

EBay.co.uk is also a British company, wholly owned by eBaydotcom.

[reallynicestamps]

And yep. PB is a registered UK business.

http://www.pb.com/Contact-Us/United-Kingdom.shtml

Ans now it is lunchtime and I have a date with my seamstress.

[lapidary2]

---

@reallynicestamps wrote:

And yep. PB is a registered UK business.

http://www.pb.com/Contact-Us/United-Kingdom.shtml

Ans now it is lunchtime and I have a date with my seamstress.

---

Thank you for taking the trouble to research this.

It is too late to call PB now in the UK but I will do so tomorrow and report back here with the results.

[lapidary2]

Ok, so far I have established that the UK office of Pitney Bowes has nothing whatsoever to do with the Global Shipping Program but they gave me the US telephone number, 866 235 9627. They also told me that Pitney Bowes does not deal with the shipping, so they are not like Fedex and UPS who have a hub at the receiving airport in the UK and collect duty and taxes at the hub and so, is not responsible for/does not pay duties and taxes to HMRC.

Furthermore, I have discovered this thread:

http://community.ebay.com/t5/International-Trading/GSP-now-accused-of-committing-customs-fraud-in-Ge...

I remain firmly of the opinion that this is a massive fraud and intend to pursue the matter.

I will be talking to Pitney Bowes later.

[reallynicestamps]

The hub where eBay purchases are assessed is in Kentucky, at least for Canadian sales. From there, PB sub-contracts to various shippers (mostly USPS/Canada Post but DHL and CanPar have been mentioned on the Canadian Boards that I remember).

It doesn't surprise me that PBUK told you they are not shippers. I never thought of them as anything but postage meters until they got into the GSP.  Nor would the guy on the customer line necessarily know about the American branch's contracts.

One reason Canadian buyers are upset is that our limit for duty-free imports is $20 CDN (currently about $17.60 USD). The Canadian Border Services Agency has for several years decided not to bother with postal imports that are not bulky and are low-value (around $100CDN or less).  The probable basis of this is that with NAFTA (free trade with USA et al) duty is rarely due and sales tax (from 5% to 15% depending on province) is equally low.

So a dress valued at  $20USD /$22.00 CDN would in theory attract no duty if made in the USA but would attract no duty but $3.00 in tax, which most people decide is duty because they don't bother to read.  Colour them livid. Over $3.00.

This is of course,the  legal practice. In fact CBSAs practice of ignoring those low value imports is illegal. But it would probably cost CBSA a more to collect the $3 than they take in. And of course, since that is actually sales tax, they don't even keep that. Abour half of it goes to the provinces. (Our sales taxes are more complex than the plot of Game of Thrones.)

Gotta go co-ordinate Ministerial Briefing Notes with Invitations and Meetings. As winter progresses, he's been getting a lot of invitations to open water plants and attend pow wows.

[bennett4612]

Hi all. Just a quick two (or maybe four) cents on what's being discussed here. 

First off, the Buyer Terms & Conditions page has details about the GSP Program Fees (scroll down to #3):  http://pages.ebay.com/shipping/globalshipping/buyer-tnc.html

There have been numerous requests for additional details around these fees. It is something we are working on with Pitney Bowes. We are also working on making VAT type info more easily available to buyers; in the meantime if buyers need this type of info you can request it via the info I'll paste below or send me a Private Message and I can request that it be sent. 

Here is some GSP specific contact info for eBay and Pitney Bowes:

For Pitney Bowes customer service regarding GSP issues, you can email PBISGSPCS@pb.com to reach the GSP Customer Service group. Or you can call 1-866-235-9627, and press 1 to reach the same GSP Customer Service group. 

To reach GSP customer service on the eBay side, call eBay Customer Service ( 1-866-540-3229  [ or ] 1-866-643-1587 ) and request to speak with a GSP Specialist. If the CS person on the line cannot help they can transfer you to someone who can. Hours of operation: Monday - Sunday, 6:00am - 11:00pm Mountain Time. 

Hope this helps. 

---Bennett

[lapidary2]

For the record, I did everything that Bennett suggested, three days ago. My conversation simply confirmed everything that I have already said and it is becoming ever clearer that the GSP is a scam and a customs fraud.

I spoke to Pitney Bowes in the USA and found myself talking to an idiot, talking utter twaddle. She could not understand the points I was making and eventually told me to phone eBay!

When I phoned eBay, in the USA, I was eventually put through to someone who could discuss the GSP. He told me:

1. The charges are calculated by Pitney Bowes

2. The duties are collected on completion of the purchase through PayPal.

3. He was aware of the fact that the charges might be wrong on occasion.

4. Although Pitney Bowes is managing the process, international carriers such as FedEx are used to transport the items.

5. eBay makes nothing out of the GSP, all funds go to Pitney Bowes.

6. I pointed out condition 3.d of the GSP user agreement but he said that in the event that a buyer feels that they have paid import duties that are not due, eBay will "work with the buyer" to sort out the matter. This falls well short of a categorical assurance.

For the record, does anyone here actually believe point 5? I certainly don't!

He was aware of the fact that there are problems and he suggested that I contact eBay corporate headquarters to express my concern. I pointed out that the charges raised for gold coins are fraudulent and that by collecting them, even if it is only for Pitney Bowes, eBay is complicit in the fraud. Moreover, I pointed out that many international buyers would be unaware that they are paying duties inappropriately and Pitney Bowes are pocketing these funds.

He suggested that a US seller could cancel a listing and relist the item without ticking the GSP box but I said that this would involve them in unnecessary and avoidable effort and the way things are at present, international sellers who sign up to the GSP will lose money because they will lose bidders.

In my opinion, since duties do not become payable in the receving country until the goods have entered that country, it seems to me that the whole program is illegal, even on those occasions where the duty calculation would be correct.

In addition to the tax and duty exemptions I have already mentioned in this thread, you can add the fact that used items are also free of duty and tax.

He accepted that there were indeed problems and I intend to address these problems in an appropriate manner and place if eBay is unwilling to cancel the GSP.

[sub_6corners]

Actually Pitney Bowes or whomever is acting as a broker taking the fees from the buyer to insure passage through the import system sometimes rather complex. It is no different than importing a 40 foot container of product from India into the USA paying for the goods and services , taxes ,freight what have you to the import broker they are holding the money and will disburse to the proper channels at the site moneys are released. In the case of any extra fees collected it is tough to go back and get a refund. If the broker has not collected enough you will usually end up paying the difference if you would like to see sight of your container. These are the risks and or joys of moving from national to international trade everyone wants in your pocket to do nothing more than watch the transaction happen.

[femmefan1946]

You and the eBay rep  left out 2) a.) The duty and tax are remitted to the importer's country.

I deal with stamp collectors so I am less suspicious of wrongdoing than numismatists who seem to have a very different view of the world.

That from time to time duty is incorrectly assessed would not surprise me. Especially when dealing with the tax codes of over 178 countries and an almost immeasurable number of products.

When UPS was the sore point here in Canada, buyers had to pay duty and tax on their doorsteps before the parcel would be handed over. There was no notice that this was going to happen, and it is one of the reasons why the GPS was introduced.

Of course, mistakes were made. Duty would be charged when it should not be.

Weexperience members would advise buyers to contact the Canadian Border Services Agency, who have offices in most larger centres and are also online, and appeal for a refund. CBSA is apparently pretty good about it. Not fast, but willing to make the refunds. (CBSA is a federal agency but also distributes the federal and provincial sales taxes back to those levels of government)

The big problem with GSP is that Pitney Bowes is not breaking down their invoices to explain how much of the total is duty, how much tax, and how much their own service charge.

This is a problem for businesses buying through eBay, since we need those numbers for our tax accounting. I assume that your business gets a rebate on import fees charged when you later export goods? And of course, duty, tax and service fees are different line items on our tax forms.

The early excuse was that PB assumed that all the transactions on eBay would be person to person or business to person, and these numbers would be irrelevant.

Business to business transactions require much more exact information. Which PB has been slow to address.

Even in person to person transactions, the breakdown is needed when items are being returned. However PB has partially covered that by simply refunding in total and not involving either buyer or seller in the later transaction with border agency officials.