Buyer tried to abuse the Hassle Free Return System. I won...need advice

[mrobind42]

I had a buyer who bought a designer handbag. She wanted to return it but not pay the return shipping so she used the hassle free returns, selected item is defective or doesn't work. This means I would have to not only pay return shipping but that I would receive an item not as described strike. I have put in the time and work to earn top rated plus. Below is the email from ebay: (amazing right?)

Hi mrobind42,

The eBay Customer Support has reviewed the case and made a final decision.

 We decided not to issue the buyer a refund. You don't need to do anything else for this case.

Decision:
This case has been decided in your favor.

Comments:
This case was found in your favor because this item isn't eligible for eBay Buyer Protection. Any feedback left, including detailed seller ratings, will be removed and won't affect your seller performance standing. Note: It could take up to 24 hours for your Seller Dashboard to reflect this decision.

My question is this, the buyer messaged me telling me she was confused as to what to choose...she missed the item is to small at the top of the list...and has already sent the purse back. What do I do? I wonder how many times she has done this and feel she should not benefit from a) fraud and b) almost ruining my hard earned reputation in this category. However, I am an honest seller. Should I refund the money or refuse the package?  I cannot keep it, it would not be right. I am inclined to just refuse the package, but am not sure if that is eBay policy? I need solid advice on this please.

[supershrink]

ebays only goal is to rake in excessive fees and side with buyers    sellers are doomed

we have been selling high end antique silver since  1999

then there were  100 or more such dealers

now there are 3-4

[mrobind42]

I agree. They are turning this market place into the cheapest place to buy. I've seen their ads...find the best and lowest prices on ebay. I'm sorry, but if people want to pay what I do, they can go to the store I shop at and buy it themselves, or open a business, obtain a resale license, and place orders. But they better be prepared for the minimums. I'm here to make money, not give stuff away. I no longer offer free shipping on every designer item. If these people want something for nothing they are going to at least pay the shipping.

Are they any other venues available to you? If so, I would say bye bye to ebay. Your products are in the area of "real money"...IMHO eBay is too dangerous a place to risk selling on

[mrobind42]

Here's an even better one...I looked at my dashboard last night to see this

The buyer started a return

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• 1
  Return started

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• 2
  Item shipped

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• 3
  Item delivered

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• 4
  Refund sent

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We've asked the buyer to ship the item back by Feb 23.You should wait until you get the item back before you refund the buyer.

Here's what the buyer said:

Reason:

I found a better price elsewhere

But wait...it gets even better. This is an email I received from a bidder Sunday night...65 minutes before the auction ended...

New message from:

Hello, just wondering is there any way i can retract my bid because I just purchased this bag from another seller?

REALLY????????????????????????

[1stglobalwholesale]

I called them and they basically told me that since I offer returns I am responsible for it!!!!!  So angry right now!  I asked them how I can avoid this in the future and they said I can filter the buyers.....I've already done this!!!!  Basically I should stop accepting returns! AHHHHH

[reallynicestamps]

If you take Paypal you take returns, or more exactly, you offer refunds when the item is not as described or is not delivered promptly.

Whatever you say in your Terms of Saler is pre-empted by your Paypal agreement, which does allow for transactions going bad (for  the buyer or for the seller).

If the bidder asks for a cancellation, do it. Doesn't matter why.

If a buyer asks for a cancellation*, do it. Doesn't matter why.

This is retail, not being stood up at the altar.

You may decide to add her to your Blocked Bidder List.

You can demand that the item be returned. It's up to the buyer whether she uses tracking.

But mostly, don't sweat it.

Seventeen cents a minute.

That's the minimum wage per minute in Ontario. If you spend more time at minimum wage brooding over some wacko's silly (or scammy) behaviour, than you ever could make on the sale, you are losing money.

And I don't know about you, but I'm here to make money.

Not every transaction will go perfecly.

BTW, as part of this system, don't look at your defects. If you can't make money without TRS, then you should be looking at your business plan.

*Although if she seems at all 'off', demanding or strange or dithery, go for the Unpaid Item Dispute instead because; Feedback.

[mrobind42]

Oh, I'm not sweating it...I charge a 20% restocking fee. She got her refund. Then she open an item not as described case for the restocking fee plus shipping. Called ebay..won. Reported her on both abuses...she violated eBay's return policy, but I knew the deal. Kept trucking. Relisted for the amount I refunded, sold before the next morning. i was just sharing the retarded things buyers do.

[mrobind42]

It won't help. You can either refund them or eBay will and invoice you for it. I've been lucky in having buyers who claim one thing and then send messages contradicting what that claim.

[mrobind42]

I know all of this. I was just sharing the sheer stupidity of some buyers. The fact is, as sellers, we may have to kneel to the great eBay and PayPal if we want to sell on this site, but we also need to share our experiences and remedies in what we CAN do. We all need to report the buyer, we all need to call the Attorney General of our respective states...PayPal bends to them...and we all need to activate the automatic UPI assistant. I don't waste time on these people. I used to, then I discovered that one little question...do you want to charge a restocking fee. The buyer who couldn't be bothered to message me about the return because she found one cheaper ended up paying $315.09. I'm not sweating it...I got my fvf back, I used sell similar to relist and reported her for abusing the returns system in less than a minute. It resold in less than 12 hours. It took less than10 minutes to clear the item not as described case, in my favor, and report her for abusing that system. The buyer who ran the bid up...the UPI assistant opened the case and will close it. I didn't waste a second on that one. But she will receive an unpaid buyer strike. I've spent more time on this post than I did on both cases. Why? Because while I may not be an "experienced" seller, I stand up for myself and I refuse to be run over without being heard. I learn my rights, find ways to make them follow their own policy, and quite frankly, if I had lost $3,000 because someone returned a rock I would have sued the buyer. That's not a loss you should sit back and take. Not only is that a criminal offense, fraud, it's also a breach of contract. There are ecommerce laws in effect for those types of situations. If it crossed state lines, that makes it a federal crime. Sue for the cost and attorney fees, hotel fees, and the cost of the item. It's simple contract law. The buyer and seller both enter into a contract. Both have to uphold their end of the deal. If not, it's a breach of contract. If you have all of your documentation and proof and a lawyer well versed in ecommerce laws, you will win. Do your homework...learn your rights.  We have them. Would I sue someone over a couple hundred dollars? You bet your behind I would…if they made me mad enough. I can fill out the paperwork and pay my lawyer to file it. If sellers aren’t willing to take a stand then this will continue. It’s that simple. By allowing buyers to cheat, lie, and steal you are enabling them. I refuse to do that. It’s not in my nature. I will be heard…sometimes I even win. Now, I have spent more time on this post than I did on both cases and I have homework. If you cannot find anything on the ecommerce laws in your state…message me. I’ll send a link so you can find them. I’ll even tell you how to fill out the paperwork, but a lawyer has to file them. Think about it…don’t just put it off as a “newbie” blowing off steam. I know what I’m talking about, and I’ve succeeded where many haven’t. I also know contract law.

Thanks for listening.

[phoenixfabulous]

Just my two cents:

I certainly don't believe in being a doormat - if a buyer tries to abuse the system you should certainly make reasonable effort to correct the situation. The key word being reasonable – which I believe varies based on the situation and amount in question.

Going to the extent of hiring lawyers and traveling, as you suggest, costs a seller in more ways than one and could just be throwing good money after bad. Lets say you have a “no-brainer” win and prevail - a judgment in your favor and money in your pocket are two very different things. Just because you have a judgment does not mean the buyer will pay you one red cent – and now your out even more money. Then you’d have to try and get a lien on one of their assets or a court ordered wage garnishment – very difficult to achieve and even more money out of your pocket. If a buyer is so dishonest that you have to go to these extreams - unfortunately they probably know all the loop holes.

Given those facts I believe a seller should choose what to sell, where to sell, how to sell and terms of sale accordingly. Lots of avenues to choose from – one size does not fit all in regard to protecting yourself as a seller - it should depend on the type of product and price so that any possible after the fact issues are mitigated - and if they do occur they can be handled …. reasonably.

[mrobind42]

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@chatinney wrote:

Just my two cents:

I certainly don't believe in being a doormat - if a buyer tries to abuse the system you should certainly make reasonable effort to correct the situation. The key word being reasonable – which I believe varies based on the situation and amount in question.

You are correct in reasonable being the key word. If someone were to buy one of your items and return a rock in it's place you'd be out $250 at most. I was addressing the sellers who lose A LOT of money. For them it would be REASONABLE to file a lawsuit. The buyer perpetrated a crime. It's called fraud, obtaining property by false pretenses, and if it crossed state lines it then becomes a federal crime. That makes it reasonable to file. 

Going to the extent of hiring lawyers and traveling, as you suggest, costs a seller in more ways than one and could just be throwing good money after bad. Lets say you have a “no-brainer” win and prevail - a judgment in your favor and money in your pocket are two very different things. Just because you have a judgment does not mean the buyer will pay you one red cent – and now your out even more money. Then you’d have to try and get a lien on one of their assets or a court ordered wage garnishment – very difficult to achieve and even more money out of your pocket. If a buyer is so dishonest that you have to go to these extreams - unfortunately they probably know all the loop holes.

You do not have to "try to get a lien", you obtain a judgement...and that is automatic. And that's if it is pursued only as a civil suit. If it is pursued as a criminal case as well the perpetrater will be tried and if convicted may or may not serve time. Either way, there are reparations to be made before they are released. If they are on probation and do not pay,  the probation is revoked and their sentence becomes active. As far as the expense of the lawyer...the buyer pays it..or not, but it does not come out of the sellers pocket. You complain about traveling and consider that a waste of time? Sell a $45,000 stove on eBay (yes, there is one for sale) and have a crate of boulders returned to you. Would that be enough to get you off your behind and take a stand? 

Given those facts I believe a seller should choose what to sell, where to sell, how to sell and terms of sale accordingly. Lots of avenues to choose from – one size does not fit all in regard to protecting yourself as a seller - it should depend on the type of product and price so that any possible after the fact issues are mitigated - and if they do occur they can be handled …. reasonably.

What you gave are not facts...they are opinion's. The homework I mentioned....what do you suppose it's for? Why do you think I know as much as i do about contract law? You and I are very different sellers. Would you go after a buyer for breach of contract? Judging from your response, I'd say no. Would I? Depends...ecommerce law operates much like ecommerce. Most of it is conducted over the internet. 

What you need to be doing is encouraging sellers to make informed decisions based on their situation, not yours. You and i do not deal in the high dollar market. What we lose is pocket change.  But sellers who deal in large amounts of money need to know there are laws that will protect them. eBay certainly isn't going to tell them and neither will PayPal. 

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[phoenixfabulous]

Gee - seems I struck a nerve.

I wont spend time addressing all your inaccurate comments or continuing to post on this subject - not into wasting time with a silly pissing match. Just know this - I'm retired now but have run and owned multi-million dollar mail order / direct sales / online companies since 1982 - I've pretty much seen it all and speak from experience - not online reading. Book smart and street smart are very differenct things as are getting a judgement and getting paid. 

Happy Selling !

[supershrink]

do you work for ebay?

I say this

as u have so much time to write  (always with a pro ebay bias)

how do u find time to list?

[mrobind42]

Now you are being silly. No I do not work for ebay. They do not like me much at this point. And you can answer your own question by going to my store where you will find a lot of listings. And no, I don't use turbo lister. You don't like what I have to say then don't read it. If you don't stick up for yourself as a seller that's up to you. Me, I'll go down fighting for my rights.

[mrobind42]

Not sure where you decided this was a pissing match. I may not be retired, but I have plenty of street smarts as well as book smarts. Online reading? Make that college degree's with honors. I run my own company outside of ebay. Like I told the other guy...you don't like what I wrote, don't read it. But don't take it personally either.

[mrobind42]

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@supershrink wrote:

do you work for ebay?

That's a joke

I say this

as u have so much time to write  (always with a pro ebay bias)

Obviously you can read, but I have to wonder at your reading comprehension skills. How do you see a pro ebay bias? I'm surprised I still have an account open. Or is it because I am one of the few who has actually won a case against a buyer? Why do you suppose that is? Oh wait...I know. It's because I don't just lay there and let the great gods of eBay run all over me. 

how do u find time to list?

Not that it's any of your business, but I am disabled and refuse to live off the state. I have several college degree's and am working on another. eBay pays for the advertisment of my real business which gives me the freedom to continue my education.  I have plenty of time to list as well as school and I will continue to advocate for sellers rights. Something everyone in this particular group should be doing. 

The real question is...Do you work for them? Seems like my post asking sellers to stand up for themselves struck a nerve with you. Why exactly is that?

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