What good are NO RETURN policy if eBay allows buyers to misuse by way of Not as Described???

[iteleti]

We have changed and made sure items listed state No Returns for Domestic and International. Now, every single buyer has stated Not as described and every single time I've had to accept the return and our listings states buyer to pay return shipping and we have to pay for return shipping as well. I don't know about the rest of you sellers, but this has gone on for to long and I'm finally feeling the blunt end of the stick. We have seen more and more sellers leave as well as more lawsuits. Keep in mind, these lawsuits are done in arbitration on purpose so the resulting outcomes and rewards are not disclosed. There are sellers getting paid in court, arbitration that is, due to the findings in favor of plaintiffs(eBay sellers).

[iteleti]

We have changed and made sure items listed state No Returns for Domestic and International. Now, every single buyer has stated Not as described and every single time I've had to accept the return and our listings states buyer to pay return shipping and we have to pay for return shipping as well. I don't know about the rest of you sellers, but this has gone on for to long and I'm finally feeling the blunt end of the stick. We have seen more and more sellers leave as well as more lawsuits. Keep in mind, these lawsuits are done in arbitration on purpose so the resulting outcomes and rewards are not disclosed. There are sellers getting paid in court, arbitration that is, due to the findings in favor of plaintiffs(eBay sellers).

[corvettestainless]

This is nothing new, been this way for 2+ years. No Returns are only for 'remorse' returns. Having a 'no return' policy in this day & age of internet shopping where 'everything ships free and returns are gladly excepted',  is something you will need to do if you want to avoid paying the return shipping. Without excepting returns, you are just forcing customers to choose 'not as described' to force a return. As you've experienced- you will refund the customer. 

[no_zero369 · Accepted solution]

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@iteleti wrote:

We have changed and made sure items listed state No Returns for Domestic and International. Now, every single buyer has stated Not as described and every single time I've had to accept the return and our listings states buyer to pay return shipping and we have to pay for return shipping as well. I don't know about the rest of you sellers, but this has gone on for to long and I'm finally feeling the blunt end of the stick. We have seen more and more sellers leave as well as more lawsuits. Keep in mind, these lawsuits are done in arbitration on purpose so the resulting outcomes and rewards are not disclosed. There are sellers getting paid in court, arbitration that is, due to the findings in favor of plaintiffs(eBay sellers).

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@iteleti 

Hey, I hear your frustration!  Believe me, I do!  In fact, I was in the same place when I started selling and almost quit until I learned a few things on these boards.  First thing, and this was a HARD thing for me, was to accept that returns are just part of retail selling.  Oh, I fought against that and 'stood on principle' of my 'no returns' policy for a while and got run over by the Money Back Guarantee (MBG) policy several times.  In fact, I suffered a "Maximum Loss" on several occasions where eBay refunded the buyer with my funds AND did not required the buyer to return the item!

Then I learned that when a return is requested or initiated that I am going to lose money - BUT how much money I lose depended on what actions I took or didn't take.  So now I accept returns if I think I can get the item back and resell it for some profit.  The other things that helped me was when I learned to create a 'contingency fund" or self insurance fund.  I "tax" each sale by 5% and set those monies aside.  Then when a return happens I have money set aside to pay for return shipping.  Having the funds up front helped take the sting away from a return for me.

Finally, one thing I do is not count my chickens before they hatch.  In other words, I don't assume that the money from a sale is mine until the MBG expires (30-days from when tracking shows delivered).  That way, if there is a return, I have money for the refund.

Anyway, hope some of this helps?

[no_zero369 · Accepted solution]

We have changed and made sure items listed state No Returns for Domestic and International. Now, every single buyer has stated Not as described and every single time I've had to accept the return and our listings states buyer to pay return shipping and we have to pay for return shipping as well. I don't know about the rest of you sellers, but this has gone on for to long and I'm finally feeling the blunt end of the stick. We have seen more and more sellers leave as well as more lawsuits. Keep in mind, these lawsuits are done in arbitration on purpose so the resulting outcomes and rewards are not disclosed. There are sellers getting paid in court, arbitration that is, due to the findings in favor of plaintiffs(eBay sellers).

[mr_lincoln]

@iteleti   I have state umpteen times that I have no clue why eBay still has the "No returns" setting on the listing form because they created the SNAD claim to trump that setting.  On another note, Sellers can NOT force Buyers to keep something they don't want so that setting should not exist ... returns are part of doing business, we get ;em, you get 'em, most Sellers probably get 'em.

[jennieaa]

Part of the problem is eBay takes no action when a buyer's remorse is hidden in the Not as Described.

Twice now, I have returns for a vintage ad.  Both times, the buyer says "does not fit".  Where is the artificial intelligence now?

One was "oops I thought I was buying the real thing not an Ad."   

The second doesn't want the ad because in the 4 days between buying the ad and receiving the ad, he sold his car - so he doesn't need the ad for that car.

I can 'report' the buyer.  Whoopeee.  How many reports for abusing the return process will it take for eBay to figure out "Houston, we have a problem".?

[kensgiftshop]

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@mr_lincoln wrote:

@iteleti   I have state umpteen times that I have no clue why eBay still has the "No returns" setting on the listing form because they created the SNAD claim to trump that setting.  On another note, Sellers can NOT force Buyers to keep something they don't want so that setting should not exist ... returns are part of doing business, we get ;em, you get 'em, most Sellers probably get 'em.

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I have a feeling, they are going to do away with the no returns, in one of their next big changes.

[no_zero369]

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@jennieaa wrote:

Part of the problem is eBay takes no action when a buyer's remorse is hidden in the Not as Described.

Twice now, I have returns for a vintage ad.  Both times, the buyer says "does not fit".  Where is the artificial intelligence now?

One was "oops I thought I was buying the real thing not an Ad."   

The second doesn't want the ad because in the 4 days between buying the ad and receiving the ad, he sold his car - so he doesn't need the ad for that car.

I can 'report' the buyer.  Whoopeee.  How many reports for abusing the return process will it take for eBay to figure out "Houston, we have a problem".?

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We will never know how many reports it takes to have a buyer banned. 

But the way I see it, buyers who misuse the process do it consistently.  Thus, I wonder if the sellers who previously dealt with this from the buyer had reported the buyer if the present seller would have to deal with this?

[electrola_man]

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@kensgiftshop wrote:

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@mr_lincoln wrote:

@iteleti   I have state umpteen times that I have no clue why eBay still has the "No returns" setting on the listing form because they created the SNAD claim to trump that setting.  On another note, Sellers can NOT force Buyers to keep something they don't want so that setting should not exist ... returns are part of doing business, we get ;em, you get 'em, most Sellers probably get 'em.

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I have a feeling, they are going to do away with the no returns, in one of their next big changes.

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I hope not.  I do not get bit by it too often, and I still think having "no returns" makes sense for a lot of used merchandise where stealing parts or switching parts is easy.  Even if it is only a psychological barrier to fraud, where someone can get away with it but decides not to, I think it helps some.  I know some will disagree, but my experience has been that I don't get many fraudulent return requests except for the occasional person who lies to get free return postage.

[electrola_man]

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@no_zero369 wrote:

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@iteleti wrote:

We have changed and made sure items listed state No Returns for Domestic and International. Now, every single buyer has stated Not as described and every single time I've had to accept the return and our listings states buyer to pay return shipping and we have to pay for return shipping as well. I don't know about the rest of you sellers, but this has gone on for to long and I'm finally feeling the blunt end of the stick. We have seen more and more sellers leave as well as more lawsuits. Keep in mind, these lawsuits are done in arbitration on purpose so the resulting outcomes and rewards are not disclosed. There are sellers getting paid in court, arbitration that is, due to the findings in favor of plaintiffs(eBay sellers).

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@iteleti 

Hey, I hear your frustration!  Believe me, I do!  In fact, I was in the same place when I started selling and almost quit until I learned a few things on these boards.  First thing, and this was a HARD thing for me, was to accept that returns are just part of retail selling.  Oh, I fought against that and 'stood on principle' of my 'no returns' policy for a while and got run over by the Money Back Guarantee (MBG) policy several times.  In fact, I suffered a "Maximum Loss" on several occasions where eBay refunded the buyer with my funds AND did not required the buyer to return the item!

Then I learned that when a return is requested or initiated that I am going to lose money - BUT how much money I lose depended on what actions I took or didn't take.  So now I accept returns if I think I can get the item back and resell it for some profit.  The other things that helped me was when I learned to create a 'contingency fund" or self insurance fund.  I "tax" each sale by 5% and set those monies aside.  Then when a return happens I have money set aside to pay for return shipping.  Having the funds up front helped take the sting away from a return for me.

Finally, one thing I do is not count my chickens before they hatch.  In other words, I don't assume that the money from a sale is mine until the MBG expires (30-days from when tracking shows delivered).  That way, if there is a return, I have money for the refund.

Anyway, hope some of this helps?

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It may come down to this, but I feel bad about having to "tax" good buyers to pay for the bad behavior of others.  And really, it's not the other buyers that pay it, but it's you, out of what should be your profits.

[electrola_man]

We have changed and made sure items listed state No Returns for Domestic and International. Now, every single buyer has stated Not as described and every single time I've had to accept the return and our listings states buyer to pay return shipping and we have to pay for return shipping as well. I don't know about the rest of you sellers, but this has gone on for to long and I'm finally feeling the blunt end of the stick. We have seen more and more sellers leave as well as more lawsuits. Keep in mind, these lawsuits are done in arbitration on purpose so the resulting outcomes and rewards are not disclosed. There are sellers getting paid in court, arbitration that is, due to the findings in favor of plaintiffs(eBay sellers).

[no_zero369]

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@electrola_man wrote:

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It may come down to this, but I feel bad about having to "tax" good buyers to pay for the bad behavior of others.  And really, it's not the other buyers that pay it, but it's you, out of what should be your profits.

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Oh, I hear you!  It is frustrating and it was all hard for me to swallow.  But in the end I had to recognize that the "tax" was just part of the 'cost of doing business' and work that cost into my pricing and profit projections.  Certainly doing the 'tax' and setting aside the funds has made selling more enjoyable and made it a darn sight easier to sleep at night. 

If I price correctly, then it is always the buyers who pay for these returns.  It is no different with Amazon, Walmart or Target - the cost of returns is factored into their 'cost of doing business' and ultimately it is the buyers who pay the fare.  er, unless one elects to sell for less profit.

I will say this, on a few items once I added in the "extra costs" I was able to see that there was very little profit in selling those items so I just plain quit.  Not everything can be sold for a reasonable profit (on line).

[7606dennis]

Actually, a NO RETURNS policy is, in my opinion, a good one to have since it gives you, the seller, control over accepting or rejecting returns for buyer's remorse.  However, for returns necessitated by items arriving damaged or otherwise not as described, if the seller could simply say, "Sorry, No Returns," the buyer would have little recourse but to file fraud charges against the seller.

[southern*sweet*tea]

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@no_zero369 wrote:

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@electrola_man wrote:

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It may come down to this, but I feel bad about having to "tax" good buyers to pay for the bad behavior of others.  And really, it's not the other buyers that pay it, but it's you, out of what should be your profits.

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Oh, I hear you!  It is frustrating and it was all hard for me to swallow.  But in the end I had to recognize that the "tax" was just part of the 'cost of doing business' and work that cost into my pricing and profit projections.  Certainly doing the 'tax' and setting aside the funds has made selling more enjoyable and made it a darn sight easier to sleep at night. 

If I price correctly, then it is always the buyers who pay for these returns.  It is no different with Amazon, Walmart or Target - the cost of returns is factored into their 'cost of doing business' and ultimately it is the buyers who pay the fare.  er, unless one elects to sell for less profit.

I will say this, on a few items once I added in the "extra costs" I was able to see that there was very little profit in selling those items so I just plain quit.  Not everything can be sold for a reasonable profit (on line).

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I have been doing this for the 16 years I've been selling online. I did it when I had a mail order business in the 1980s and early 1990s. I figure why pay for business insurance when I can insure my own self and keep any proceeds. It's a legitimate business expense, and a legitimate business passes ALL expenses on to their customers.  You pass on the cost of the item sold, your profit, your time, your utilities, your shipping expenses...why not the insurance expense?

[iteleti]

So now eBay and I are deciding if we can do business together. We both require documents from each other to settle cases and disputes. Having thousands on hold is no fun and they want to get paid on their invoices just the same as I do. Paying $2k/month for eBay Seller Fee's I guess is not enough for them to uphold a No Returns Policy. The thing is, I only just started using it do to the amount of recent fraud in buyers Not as Described on Returns. When items are received and you have broken seals that state WARRANTY VOID if removed or Tamper Resistance Seals that allow you to know when an item has been used or opened, or error codes that were non existent prior to the sale, you would think something more could be done or should be done.

Like mentioned, as long as one can sell the item again without having to put to much time and money back into, then policies can be put into place to account for the financial loss and to have funding set aside for these not as described returns. So until a black and white agreement between eBay and the seller, us, can be reached that we can accept and they can defend, then our sales will be on hold and payments for seller fee's. To continue forward, it must be agreeable or reimbursement will be sought. The fee's used to be paid for more than just a sales channel or an online venue. The fee's not only were for you to have your items on a marketplace gaining exposure and sales, but the fee's were for administration of that and defending the initial terms and conditions and agreements that both parties accepted in the first place. Which is why we elected not to choose arbitration in the recent seller agreement updates and use the good ole fashion way if need be so the public could see for itself any judgments or moneys that have been awarded to sellers in any cases were eBay has been the defendant. Otherwise, one would never know. It's how big Co's protect themselves when they've been bad and still want to be perceived as good. Because only Santa "Clause" knows.

Good Luck to all and thanks for chiming in and please continue to chime in. To be continued...

[no_zero369]

Hey, I get the frustration and anger....and perhaps that is warranted here.  Just an observation, fwiw...  Don't cutoff your nose to spite your face.  Getting into a pizzing match with eBay over fees and withholding them could get you tossed off the site.    Hey, that is fine but at 9% fees it looks like that is sales of $222K.  So if you have alternative sources of that income or a way to easily replace it, then fight on.

I suspect eBay within the "fine print" in the User Agreement has verbiage that anticipates the issue you are experiencing and has things locked down in their favor.  So fighting might lose you some revenues and privileges. 

I thought part of business was facing obstacles and finding smart and creative ways to overcome those challenges?

Hey, I'm just saying.

[lir.tis]

I wish I could give your solution several thumbs up! I am going to implement that 5% “tax” for myself. Thank you for your advice!