Free Returns

[plumbingspecials]

I had a conversation with an eBay rep yesterday who called me to tell me (once again) about the free returns program, and how this wonderful program can boost sales by 15 percent, according to some data that was most likely manipulated to get people to believe that sales = profits.

I feel really bad because by the end of the conversation, she was trembling, perhaps even in tears, and that was certainly not my intention. The poor girl was just doing the job she was hired to do, reading a script that she was told to read, and to try to convince Top Rated Sellers that it's okay to be extorted by eBay. I hope she did not take my feedback about eBay personally, but I really think it was her first day. I explained to her that this move by eBay is opening a whole new channel for thieves. Now they can search by "free returns" so they can target sellers who offer this program. Thieves know they can get items for free or for at least 50% off. There is no way a seller can make a profit with this strategy. There is no honor among thieves, and if eBay truly believes members are always honest, they are sadly optimistic. As it is now, most returns are FALSE SNAD cases (in other words, the buyer LIES to avoid shipping and restocking fees), so let's just make it easier for them by removing the step where they have to lie to return something for free (yep, that will make them honest!). The rep excitedly tells me that if the item is returned in any other condition than we sent it, we are allowed to keep 50% of the sale and refund only 50% instead of having to refund the full transaction. After four reports of buyers misuing the free returns system, eBay will give them warning. So they get to rip off at least FOUR sellers before eBay shuts them down.  (Yep, again that's keeping them honest!)

I reiterated to the rep that eBay is cheating us out of our TRS benefits by forcing us to take losses on our sales. If we do not conform to this ridiculously unprofitable policy, we do not get our benefits on those listings. So, If I sell an item for $1000, the buyer requests a return and sends back a box of rocks, I get to keep 50% of the sale IF I CAN PROVE that I sent out the correct item. I do not get a discount on my final value fees because it's only a partial refund, but hey, at least eBay put our TRS badge on that item.

So to put this in perspective:

I have a unit that I paid 700 for (because I am adistributor).

I sell the unit for $1000. I pay shipping $25. Buyer requests return, I pay another 25 plus call tagf fee of 16, so it costs 41 to bring it back. I receive a box of rocks, the buyer keeps the unit, and I get to keep half of the refund because the buyer didn't send back the same unit.  Here's what it looks like:

1000-100 (fvf)=900

900-25 (shipping)=875

875-700(cost of unit)=175

At this point I made a profit of 175 (sounds good, right?)

Oh but wait. The buyer requests a return (no reason is needed).

175 (what I initially made) - 41 (return shipping and call tag)=134

Buyer ships back box of rocks instead of a unit that I can re-sell.

134-500(partial refund for scam buyer)= -366

This transaction would cost ME $366 to receive something back other than what i sold.. Not sure how eBay expects people to sell here if we are not profitting or at least breaking even. 

I suppose the rep who called me NEVER SOLD A THING ON eBay! Because not one person who ever has, would agree that this is a "good" program for sellers. I think she realized that after I schooled her.

I still feel really bad though, because she honestly thought she was promoting a good program. 

[mr_lincoln]

@acrowz

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@acrowz wrote:

Going to "buyer pays return shipping" does not work. All the buyer has to say is that the item 

"does not match description or photos".  I had one that the buyer stated that the item was not as large as they thought even with the dimensions clearly in my listing. When I disputed it, Ebay deducted the return shipping, selling price and original shipping from my Paypal account.  They reviewed my 

dispute and I received an answer back in less than 5 Minutes. This being done at 2:00 AM PST.

Can you say "automated respnse". Their attitude is grin and take it or get out.

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The problem as I see it is when the Buyer selects "does not match description or photos" is that the Seller will receive a defect for their Returns metric for Items not as described.  I have one right now where the Buyer messaged me after receiving the item, was not happy but made no mention of wanting to return it.  I immediately messaged them that they can return it, I will pay the shipping and they can simply use the choice of changed my mind.  Since their FB count was below 100 I figured they probably have not done a lot of returns so I gave them a quick step by step on how to process the claim in the Resolution Center ... they processed the return and picked "changed my mind" as their reason ...

In this instance the item WAS as described but that is no protection against a Buyer using Not as described as the reason.  Therefore, the return metric eBay has for Items not as described is bogus and subjective because Buyers will lie about their reason just to force the Seller to pay return shipping. 

[auctionsrva]

Agree, the policy before the changes worked well.  Few returns, clear process for handling and like most sellers if we've made a mistake we own it.  Remorse returns were no problem, the few that occurred weren't a blow to the bottom line. 

Not sure what the future holds.  I stopped listing for a while, will probably list some items this weekend and see how it goes.  Also looking hard at alternative venues.

[partsgalore1]

I believe I read that sellers are protected against negative FB when they offer free returns. If we are indeed protected from losses due to buyer error, changed mind, etc ... perhaps the free return policy won't be as bad as if first seemed??? Time will tell. The truth is... I have always offered free returns when I make a mistake that caused the return. All I ever wanted was protection from buyers trying to make me pay for their mistakes. Will the free return policy accomplish this and still boost sales for all of us? Again... time will tell.

[partsgalore1]

I get survey's all the time from eBay and they did have one on free returns.... and believe me, I did tell them what I thought... they didn't listen... LOL

[partsgalore1]

Thanks for the post... You observations are very interesting / surprising. Perhaps that problem will be eliminated to some degree with our ability to discount the refund as much 50%? May I ask what you do when a buyer lies to you? I have a "zero tolerance" policy .. I always block them unless there is some evidence they just made a honest mistake. With SNAD claims, I always ask for a picture "so I can see what I did wrong" ... if they don't respond or won't send a picture... they are almost without exception, lying. If eBay backs sellers up when we discount the refund up to 50%... buyers whose default is to lie, will learn that it won't benefit them and hopefully will stop lying (and I can stop blocking them...) LOL. We shall see....

[partsgalore1]

First off... if you ever let anything fall into the hands of eBay... you're likely not going to like the decision. I have always settled with the buyer even when they lie. Now that we have the ability to discount refunds up to 50% we can protect ourselves against such claims. The truth is "Free returns" is a deceptive phrase, just like "free shipping".... these are both designed to create more sales overall. As long as eBay backs us up when we have a legitimate reason for not refunding the entire purchase price, we can protect ourselves against unreasonable or dishonest buyers. In the case of items with very high shipping costs, we can still have a buyer pays return shipping or a no return policy. With the free return policy (like many things) the devil is in the details. I think the free return policy may actually protect sellers, help to boost sales and allow us to hold unreasonable and dishonest buyers accountable. However, this all hinges on whether eBay backs sellers up when we discount a refund.

[partsgalore1]

Very good post... I have saved many transactions just by being helpful (even when the buyer is clearly lying). I have found that asking for a picture of the item "so I can see what I did wrong" often gets liars to back down and sometimes gets semi-honest buyers to come clean. Now that sellers have the ability to discount the refund up to 50%, we finally have a way to protect ourselves against dishonest returns. I just did a return where I took the full 50% off the refund and as soon as that is done, we are taken to a page where we can report the buyer for fraud.

[surplus-semis]

question... I have the same issue, but with TV parts.  When they buy a part and stick it in the TV, and its not fixed, thetyy return as "defective".  You say yours are returned at buyer expense to be tested.  How do you do that?  a "defect or doesn't work" return automatically has seller paying return doesn't it?

If you get it back and test and it works fine, how do you do the refund?

[mr_lincoln]

@partsgalore1

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@partsgalore1 wrote:
I believe I read that sellers are protected against negative FB when they offer free returns. If we are indeed protected from losses due to buyer error, changed mind, etc ... perhaps the free return policy won't be as bad as if first seemed??? Time will tell. The truth is... I have always offered free returns when I make a mistake that caused the return. All I ever wanted was protection from buyers trying to make me pay for their mistakes. Will the free return policy accomplish this and still boost sales for all of us? Again... time will tell.

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I have not read the entire F.R. info, do you recall where you might have read that Sellers are protected against Neg FB if they offer F.R.s?  If it means we have to call Home Office and justify the FB removal then it falls in to the realm of subjectivity and in the end may not be of any benefit if the CS reps have the power to say yea or nay ... oops, cynicism attack, sorry.   I do seem to recall reading some of those "we have your back" type verbiage posts or detail parts of the policy but quite honestly can not seem to find them at this time.

You are right that time will tell, nothing ventured nothing gained so the test here continues on over 1/2 the items for sale ... of those I am supposed to receive a 15% increase in sales ... as a small Seller and based solely on averages that should equate to 4 to 6 MORE orders per month on the lower end items for sale.   Heading in to the last weekend of the month (actually a half weekend), as of this writing we may realize those numbers ... will know for sure Sunday when July rolls around.

[headvasegal]

You've summarized this perfectly and logically.  For we book and audiobook sellers, it puts us in the lending library profession!  If I wanted that, I'd volunteer at our local branch!

[headvasegal]

"Why not just go to a buyer pays for return shipping? If they have some skin in the game they're much more likely to be honest and more careful.'  Because they reaklly don't have skin in the game.  All the buyer has to do is flyspeck it then claim something wasn't disclosed in the listing and return becomes free!

[gmas7readers]

I sell children's books and don't get requests for returns.  Now, since the free returns are required,  I had a return, reason, "just didn't like".  So I not only shipped the books free, but now have to refund and pay for return shipping.  Now, I see it is also counted against me.  This person actually said she read them and didn't like them. Even the thrift stores don't allow returns on books!  Please, eBay, use your common sense!

[gmas7readers]

Also, besides losing the 10% and the badge, you'll also be lower on the number of views because your item won't be out there in front, it will be lower in priority.

[mr_lincoln]

@gmas7readers

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@gmas7readers wrote:

I sell children's books and don't get requests for returns.  Now, since the free returns are required,  I had a return, reason, "just didn't like".  So I not only shipped the books free, but now have to refund and pay for return shipping.  Now, I see it is also counted against me.  This person actually said she read them and didn't like them. Even the thrift stores don't allow returns on books!  Please, eBay, use your common sense!

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Actually, F.R.s are not required, they are a choice ... the implication (ie: threat) is that if Sellers don't comply their items may not come up in search as high or as often (depends on category saturation is my guess).  If you books are more of a vintage nature you probably don't have as much competition so the implication (ie: threat) of lower search results for them may not exist.

[darsdandydeals]

I think ebay must have missed the whole crack down on thieves from Amazon. They aren’t playing that game no more. Banning people plum off of the site for returns. Ebay should heed their warning!