Expensive Lesson Learned - Buyer Scam, Customized Items and Return Policies

[newpacificaleather]

I'm putting this out here in hopes that it will help another seller avoid the stupid mistakes I made trying to accommodate a buyers request.

Long story short ...A buyer contacted me asking for 5 of my leather products to be heavily customized. I agreed with the caveat that since they're customized, they would not be returnable.  He acknowledged that he understood they were not returnable.  I fabricate, customize and ship the first 4 items, he receives them, leaves positive feedback, orders the 5th item based on the first 4, then 1 hour after he receives the second shipment,  puts in a return request for both orders, with the reason "I changed my mind".  

I replied and told him that I wouldn’t accept the returns. He opened cases with Ebay, who of course immediately found in his favor and accepted the returns on my behalf. I contacted customer service, she read the cases and messages where he agreed to no returns. The moment she pointed out that the return policy on the item itself said "30 day returns", I knew I had lost.

Now I get to toss out $300+ of custom leather work, that I can't possibly resell to anyone else.

Here's the lesson learned: Even if the buyer agrees to no returns, if the item return policy indicates it can be returned, you're stuck, and have to accept the returns, even if the buyer agreed in writing not to return the item(s).  That item return policy has to be set to "No Returns" for Ebay to honor that.

The customer service lady was actually very sympathetic, she suggested once I get the returned items, that I inspect them thoroughly to make sure they're in the same new condition that I shipped them and suggested that if they're not, I open cases. But I suspect even if they're damaged and I open cases, that Ebay won't do anything about it.

I'm still on the fence about if this is some sort of scam, or maybe this guy's wife just got angry he spent so much money.

I've never left negative feedback for buyers, but I might make an exception in this case.  I'm waiting to see the returned items before I make a decision on that.

Lesson learned, cost of this lesson: $300 plus shipping.

[missjen831]

@newpacificaleather You can't leave negative feedback for the buyer. eBay took away that ability back in 2008. You've got a lot to learn here....the listing is binding, eBay messages are not. You made a big mistake here--you should have changed the return policy on the listing to "no returns". But then again had you done that, the buyer probably would have lied and said the items were not as described and opened a false SNAD which again you would lose. The best thing you could have done is just accept the return. Now you have an unresolved by seller defect from eBay and those are very serious. Returns are a part of doing business on eBay. 

[carlmarxx]

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@newpacificaleather wrote:

I'm putting this out here in hopes that it will help another seller avoid the stupid mistakes I made trying to accommodate a buyers request.

Long story short ...A buyer contacted me asking for 5 of my leather products to be heavily customized. I agreed with the caveat that since they're customized, they would not be returnable.  He acknowledged that he understood they were not returnable.  I fabricate, customize and ship the first 4 items, he receives them, leaves positive feedback, orders the 5th item based on the first 4, then 1 hour after he receives the second shipment,  puts in a return request for both orders, with the reason "I changed my mind".  

I replied and told him that I wouldn’t accept the returns. He opened cases with Ebay, who of course immediately found in his favor and accepted the returns on my behalf. I contacted customer service, she read the cases and messages where he agreed to no returns. The moment she pointed out that the return policy on the item itself said "30 day returns", I knew I had lost.

Now I get to toss out $300+ of custom leather work, that I can't possibly resell to anyone else.

Here's the lesson learned: Even if the buyer agrees to no returns, if the item return policy indicates it can be returned, you're stuck, and have to accept the returns, even if the buyer agreed in writing not to return the item(s).  That item return policy has to be set to "No Returns" for Ebay to honor that.

The customer service lady was actually very sympathetic, she suggested once I get the returned items, that I inspect them thoroughly to make sure they're in the same new condition that I shipped them and suggested that if they're not, I open cases. But I suspect even if they're damaged and I open cases, that Ebay won't do anything about it.

I'm still on the fence about if this is some sort of scam, or maybe this guy's wife just got angry he spent so much money.

I've never left negative feedback for buyers, but I might make an exception in this case.  I'm waiting to see the returned items before I make a decision on that.

Lesson learned, cost of this lesson: $300 plus shipping.

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Customized items made on buyers request ,they don't get refunds  or returns !  this is covered under both state and federal consumer and merchant rights statues .  You have buyer in the ebay mesage  system making the request .Should call up ebay and paypal  about it ! Should never refund right away .

[missjen831]

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@carlmarxx wrote:

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@newpacificaleather wrote:

I'm putting this out here in hopes that it will help another seller avoid the stupid mistakes I made trying to accommodate a buyers request.

Long story short ...A buyer contacted me asking for 5 of my leather products to be heavily customized. I agreed with the caveat that since they're customized, they would not be returnable.  He acknowledged that he understood they were not returnable.  I fabricate, customize and ship the first 4 items, he receives them, leaves positive feedback, orders the 5th item based on the first 4, then 1 hour after he receives the second shipment,  puts in a return request for both orders, with the reason "I changed my mind".  

I replied and told him that I wouldn’t accept the returns. He opened cases with Ebay, who of course immediately found in his favor and accepted the returns on my behalf. I contacted customer service, she read the cases and messages where he agreed to no returns. The moment she pointed out that the return policy on the item itself said "30 day returns", I knew I had lost.

Now I get to toss out $300+ of custom leather work, that I can't possibly resell to anyone else.

Here's the lesson learned: Even if the buyer agrees to no returns, if the item return policy indicates it can be returned, you're stuck, and have to accept the returns, even if the buyer agreed in writing not to return the item(s).  That item return policy has to be set to "No Returns" for Ebay to honor that.

The customer service lady was actually very sympathetic, she suggested once I get the returned items, that I inspect them thoroughly to make sure they're in the same new condition that I shipped them and suggested that if they're not, I open cases. But I suspect even if they're damaged and I open cases, that Ebay won't do anything about it.

I'm still on the fence about if this is some sort of scam, or maybe this guy's wife just got angry he spent so much money.

I've never left negative feedback for buyers, but I might make an exception in this case.  I'm waiting to see the returned items before I make a decision on that.

Lesson learned, cost of this lesson: $300 plus shipping.

---

Customized items made on buyers request ,they don't get refunds  or returns !  this is covered under both state and federal consumer and merchant rights statues .  You have buyer in the ebay mesage  system making the request .Should call up ebay and paypal  about it ! Should never refund right away .

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@carlmarxx this is wrong. And this doesn't apply to this situation. Again, the LISTING is what is binding. The listing was not for customized items, that is something that was negotiated via an unbinding message. And the MBG does NOT exclude customized items either.  And the seller's own return policy was "returns accepted".

[carlmarxx]

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@missjen316 wrote:

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@carlmarxx wrote:

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@newpacificaleather wrote:

I'm putting this out here in hopes that it will help another seller avoid the stupid mistakes I made trying to accommodate a buyers request.

Long story short ...A buyer contacted me asking for 5 of my leather products to be heavily customized. I agreed with the caveat that since they're customized, they would not be returnable.  He acknowledged that he understood they were not returnable.  I fabricate, customize and ship the first 4 items, he receives them, leaves positive feedback, orders the 5th item based on the first 4, then 1 hour after he receives the second shipment,  puts in a return request for both orders, with the reason "I changed my mind".  

I replied and told him that I wouldn’t accept the returns. He opened cases with Ebay, who of course immediately found in his favor and accepted the returns on my behalf. I contacted customer service, she read the cases and messages where he agreed to no returns. The moment she pointed out that the return policy on the item itself said "30 day returns", I knew I had lost.

Now I get to toss out $300+ of custom leather work, that I can't possibly resell to anyone else.

Here's the lesson learned: Even if the buyer agrees to no returns, if the item return policy indicates it can be returned, you're stuck, and have to accept the returns, even if the buyer agreed in writing not to return the item(s).  That item return policy has to be set to "No Returns" for Ebay to honor that.

The customer service lady was actually very sympathetic, she suggested once I get the returned items, that I inspect them thoroughly to make sure they're in the same new condition that I shipped them and suggested that if they're not, I open cases. But I suspect even if they're damaged and I open cases, that Ebay won't do anything about it.

I'm still on the fence about if this is some sort of scam, or maybe this guy's wife just got angry he spent so much money.

I've never left negative feedback for buyers, but I might make an exception in this case.  I'm waiting to see the returned items before I make a decision on that.

Lesson learned, cost of this lesson: $300 plus shipping.

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Customized items made on buyers request ,they don't get refunds  or returns !  this is covered under both state and federal consumer and merchant rights statues .  You have buyer in the ebay mesage  system making the request .Should call up ebay and paypal  about it ! Should never refund right away .

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@carlmarxx this is wrong. And this doesn't apply to this situation. Again, the LISTING is what is binding. The listing was not for customized items, that is something that was negotiated via an unbinding message. And the MBG does NOT exclude customized items either.  And the seller's own return policy was "returns accepted".

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Missjen  Yea I read OP's return policy.    the OP should  Update his  return policy  to include No returns ,No refunds on customized requested items by the buyer .     Ebay's  MBG  should  have been dumped after JD left the company !  And doesn't  fit as policy  for  all sellers  and type of items being sold on the site .    

[phcd1]

Expensive Lesson Learned = To have a NO RETURNS policy (I do).

Can't really blame anyone but yourself, sorry.

At least with the reason "I changed my mind", you don't have to pay return shipping and you can charge your restocking fee (if you had one listed).

[phcd1]

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@missjen316 wrote:

....you should have changed the return policy on the listing to "no returns". But then again had you done that, the buyer probably would have lied and said the items were not as described and opened a false SNAD which again you would lose..... 

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Not entirely true. Since the OP had the messages saying they agreed to no returns AND (if) the item(s) had a no returns policy, I think the OP would have a very good chance of winning that SNAD case (although there would be a fight).

[phcd1]

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@carlmarxx wrote:

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Customized items made on buyers request ,they don't get refunds  or returns !  this is covered under both state and federal consumer and merchant rights statues .  You have buyer in the ebay mesage  system making the request .Should call up ebay and paypal  about it ! Should never refund right away .

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EBay is not covered by state or federal law (or, at least THEY don't think so). Calling eBay or PayPal will be a waste of your time. You have a return policy. You'd have better use of your time trying to teach a pig to fly. EBay policy is black and white when you have a return policy, if you accept returns, you do for ANY reason.

[missjen831]

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@phcd1 wrote:

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@carlmarxx wrote:

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Customized items made on buyers request ,they don't get refunds  or returns !  this is covered under both state and federal consumer and merchant rights statues .  You have buyer in the ebay mesage  system making the request .Should call up ebay and paypal  about it ! Should never refund right away .

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EBay is not covered by state or federal law (or, at least THEY don't think so). Calling eBay or PayPal will be a waste of your time. You have a return policy. You'd have better use of your time trying to teach a pig to fly. EBay policy is black and white when you have a return policy, if you accept returns, you do for ANY reason.

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Ebay is covered by California state law and Carl is correct that cusomized goods are not covered by the return policy statute-I forget the name/code but custom goods are in fact excluded. But it still doesn't apply here because the BINDING agreement is the listing and the OP had a return policy on the listing and te listing wasn't for a custom good. If the listing had a "no returns policy", then he would have to get a customer service rep with common sense & who hasn't drunk the pro-buyer kool-aid. 

[phcd1]

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@missjen316 wrote:

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@phcd1 wrote:

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@carlmarxx wrote:

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Customized items made on buyers request ,they don't get refunds  or returns !  this is covered under both state and federal consumer and merchant rights statues .  You have buyer in the ebay mesage  system making the request .Should call up ebay and paypal  about it ! Should never refund right away .

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EBay is not covered by state or federal law (or, at least THEY don't think so). Calling eBay or PayPal will be a waste of your time. You have a return policy. You'd have better use of your time trying to teach a pig to fly. EBay policy is black and white when you have a return policy, if you accept returns, you do for ANY reason.

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Ebay is covered by California state law and Carl is correct that cusomized goods are not covered by the return policy statute-I forget the name/code but custom goods are in fact excluded. But it still doesn't apply here because the BINDING agreement is the listing and the OP had a return policy on the listing and te listing wasn't for a custom good. If the listing had a "no returns policy", then he would have to get a customer service rep with common sense & who hasn't drunk the pro-buyer kool-aid. 

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I was being sarcastic, but I think you knew that. 😉

[twk]

What I have learned is that buyers are getting smart.   I have had several buyers who are looking for things, which I state mine are not, and then, when they find out I know what I have do a SNAD or return.    Case in point is that many dealers are looking for Chinese items that are antique, or old.  Since it can be hard to tell  from marks and pictures, they just take a chance and then....wham......slam a SNAD or return on the buyer.  I have seen a big increase in this kind of stuff in the last 6 months or so.

Either way, with a return policy or a no return policy, the seller will lose.  If they file a SNAD the seller will lose because the ebay policy is that ebay doesn't know what the seller received, regardless of your pictures or even the pictures the buyer shows (I had one copy my original pictures and say it was broke yet the plate was just fine).  With a return policy, no matter what your policies on allowing returns are, you will be told by ebay that YOU offer returns and thus the buyer will win again.  BUT, you will be given the consolation prize of ebay telling you to "report the buyer" which, IMHO means absolutely NOTHING.

As I have said before; ebay feels that sellers are expendable and buyers are not.  A seller leaves and someone else will come in and start sellling unaware of the unlevel field.  Buyers are what ebay wants and the competition is keen for them.

I am closing up after my store subscription runs out.  And I have been selling and buying on this site since 1998.  It is only in the last 6 months I have seen the increase in problems with buyers.

AND, when I leave I will not be shopping on this site any more either.  There are many other sites and places to purchase from.  In fact, I find that when I go to the sellers main site (and this is for big sellers and featured sellers) I can get the item cheaper than here on ebay.  That was a real eye opener.

[plumbingspecials]

You should never set up your listings for 30 Day returns on customized items. And you should never let eBay automatically accept returns for you.

[phcd1]

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@twk wrote:

What I have learned is that buyers are getting smart.   I have had several buyers who are looking for things, which I state mine are not, and then, when they find out I know what I have do a SNAD or return.    Case in point is that many dealers are looking for Chinese items that are antique, or old.  Since it can be hard to tell  from marks and pictures, they just take a chance and then....wham......slam a SNAD or return on the buyer.  I have seen a big increase in this kind of stuff in the last 6 months or so.

Either way, with a return policy or a no return policy, the seller will lose.  If they file a SNAD the seller will lose because the ebay policy is that ebay doesn't know what the seller received, regardless of your pictures or even the pictures the buyer shows (I had one copy my original pictures and say it was broke yet the plate was just fine).  With a return policy, no matter what your policies on allowing returns are, you will be told by ebay that YOU offer returns and thus the buyer will win again.  BUT, you will be given the consolation prize of ebay telling you to "report the buyer" which, IMHO means absolutely NOTHING.

As I have said before; ebay feels that sellers are expendable and buyers are not.  A seller leaves and someone else will come in and start sellling unaware of the unlevel field.  Buyers are what ebay wants and the competition is keen for them.

I am closing up after my store subscription runs out.  And I have been selling and buying on this site since 1998.  It is only in the last 6 months I have seen the increase in problems with buyers.

AND, when I leave I will not be shopping on this site any more either.  There are many other sites and places to purchase from.  In fact, I find that when I go to the sellers main site (and this is for big sellers and featured sellers) I can get the item cheaper than here on ebay.  That was a real eye opener.

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OK, I am far from an eBay cheer leader but some of your statements are just not true. Has there been a sizable uptick in SNAD returns? There sure has been, it started a few years ago. Is the word out that if you want to return something on eBay and not have to pay anything in return? Yup, it's all over YouTube. But as a seller, all you can do is tip the cards in your favor and one of those things you can do is have a No Return policy. If you have ANY return policy at all, eBay will ALWAYS have the seller accept the return. Do I get SNAD cases? Just look at my profile and read them. Do I win them, yes about 60-75%. It’s all about patience, documentation and your listing wording. I spend about 5 hours for every SNAD I receive, that's real time dealing with them not just phone time. 

You can leave if you want, many have before you and I'm sure many more will after you. It is sad what eBay has become. This once niche site that was founded on selling a broken laser pointer (something that is almost impossible to sell and keep it sold today) has turned into a front for counterfeit goods, scams and rip-offs. I just bought a 128GB Micro SD card where the seller had 99.8% positive feedback and had "more than 10 available" that was counterfeit and would only hold 8GB before becoming corrupted (and I know what to look for!!). Upon looking at eBay for a replacement, I gave up. I'll go to Costco and pay retail. Many of the Best Matches are the SAME SELLER with different names!! He gave me a refund, no questions asked, but still I need a SD card. I come to eBay for price and convenience and if eBay can't delivery that anymore, I’ll just go elsewhere. So when the next person asks "Where's all the buyers?", think of me and all the buyers that gave up on eBay.

EBay obviously can't offer new goods consistently, maybe they should go back to their roots and sell used goods, OOAK and Parts pieces.

[tomuchstuff5]

@phcd1

@twk

Have been here since 99 and this is the only venue I have used. Have seen the same problems with returns most notably in last year. I have a no returns policy and have had to eat EACH one. All were filed with INAD to avoid return shipping. All clearly documented that was not the problem thru Ebay messages. CS has been of no assistance, in fact they have been the opposite of CS. 

No returns is good ONLY if enforced by Ebay. INAD again is the loophole that allows buyer Misuse of returns. It is now expected by buyers that they don't have to read descriptions or take any responsibility for there purchases because it is condoned. Only way to change it is for Ebay to crack down on it. As a seller I tried to challenge a clear cut buyer abuse including extortion , messages stating there was nothing wrong, just wanted for a lot less et. and ended up with a defect. It's just plain wrong. 

I attribute alot of this to Ebay trying to apply Walmart Policy to Antique/Vintage/used business. It will never work. It is a horse of a different color, always has been, always will be. I wish Ebay would get back to its roots or at least split off the big box venue from the roots products and apply appropriate policy to each venue. Of course they still have to enforce the policy.

I believe the returns situation is boosted by the showing similar items in closed listings and even the pixel apps that allow you take a picture and find another on the Internet. Alot of vintage items are sold here that are not properly researched and are often greatly overpriced or underpriced. There appears to be no due diligence of buyers when making purchases in finding the price they would like to pay and instead feel that they will get it and then negotiate the price or if they see another for less just return the one they already received. They have plenty of time to do son and nobody is stopping them. 

I believe Ebay should set up regional open and inspect of random higher ticket and electronics items. Prosecute scammers, whether it be an outbound from seller, return by buyer. I think it should automatically be done over a certain $ value. The logistics would just have to be worked out. 

[carlmarxx]

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@tomuchstuff5 wrote:

@phcd1

@twk

Have been here since 99 and this is the only venue I have used. Have seen the same problems with returns most notably in last year. I have a no returns policy and have had to eat EACH one. All were filed with INAD to avoid return shipping. All clearly documented that was not the problem thru Ebay messages. CS has been of no assistance, in fact they have been the opposite of CS. 

No returns is good ONLY if enforced by Ebay. INAD again is the loophole that allows buyer Misuse of returns. It is now expected by buyers that they don't have to read descriptions or take any responsibility for there purchases because it is condoned. Only way to change it is for Ebay to crack down on it. As a seller I tried to challenge a clear cut buyer abuse including extortion , messages stating there was nothing wrong, just wanted for a lot less et. and ended up with a defect. It's just plain wrong. 

I attribute alot of this to Ebay trying to apply Walmart Policy to Antique/Vintage/used business. It will never work. It is a horse of a different color, always has been, always will be. I wish Ebay would get back to its roots or at least split off the big box venue from the roots products and apply appropriate policy to each venue. Of course they still have to enforce the policy.

I believe the returns situation is boosted by the showing similar items in closed listings and even the pixel apps that allow you take a picture and find another on the Internet. Alot of vintage items are sold here that are not properly researched and are often greatly overpriced or underpriced. There appears to be no due diligence of buyers when making purchases in finding the price they would like to pay and instead feel that they will get it and then negotiate the price or if they see another for less just return the one they already received. They have plenty of time to do son and nobody is stopping them. 

I believe Ebay should set up regional open and inspect of random higher ticket and electronics items. Prosecute scammers, whether it be an outbound from seller, return by buyer. I think it should automatically be done over a certain $ value. The logistics would just have to be worked out. 

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You should go to the old ebay 2014  fall seller update board  , there was a thread  from a seller  that sued a buyer  , in it is a response from  ebay , that it ilegaly broke  policys   that helped   buyers on return buyer fraud