Dummy package mail fraud

[erwina11_3]

Hello Friends,

We have been victimized by what appears to be a Dummy Package Scam involving 3 cell phones purchased on Ebay and paid for via PayPal. Neither Ebay nor PayPal gave more than a cursory review of our filings and rejected out of hand our claims including Appeals. Clearly their Protection Plans are at best flimsy and at worst a Hoax.

Sadly, the phones were purchased from 3 different, first time Sellers who shipped them from the same Post Office via USPS on separate days spread over 2 weeks. We have detailed USPS Tracking Reports that clearly demonstrate false addresses for receipt. PayPal's response is that they have Strong documentation from the Sellers that Delivery occurred, and our only recourse is to contact the Seller.

Good Luck with that. All emails to the Sellers either by Hotmail or Gmail were promptly bounced back as Undeliverable. The point is that Delivery may have occurred but not to our address - a subtle but critical detail that continues to be overlooked by both Ebay and PayPal.

Sound Familiar? Sure looks to us like Mail Fraud.

The next steps that we are considering are to 1) File Report with USPIS 2) File Report with local Police 3) Contact FBI Mail Fraud Division.

Our questions are if anyone has had a similar, recent experience and was there a successful outcome? i.e. did you get your money back from either Ebay or PayPal? What additional steps should we consider?

Looks like a long slog, but after all we are out nearly $1000.

Many thanks,

[needleinahaystack714714]

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@axelenie0 wrote:

Oh ok, I understand now but you see two can play this game.

File a SNAD, and send back an empty envelope.

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That is actually how some buyers have been handling it.  One shouldn't have to be dishonest to fight dishonesty.

[erwina11_3]

Thank-you. This is exactly what I think is happening here. It is obvious the seller sent "something" through USPS in order to obtain a fraudulent "Proof of delivery" for Paypal. Of course, this makes it mail fraud since the crook used USPS to scam Paypal.

[erwina11_3]

Thank-you. Yes it is a bank checking account. We will try to appeal to a higher level of management at the bank.

[erwina11_3]

We really appreciate your informative replies. Could you explain this part further?

"I also recommend discussing with your CC company a chargeback code that will not fall under Paypal's seller protection. The idea isn't to punish Paypal by just getting a refund, the idea is to get the money back FROM THE SELLER. There are actually CB codes that are almost impossible for the seller to win against... That's the one you want to choose."

[erwina11_3]

Thank-you so much. Yes, you are absolutely right. Today we are starting to file fraud complaints with USPS, the Local Police and possibly the FBI. We will let everyone know how that goes.

[Anonymous]

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@erwina11_3 wrote:

Hello Friends,

We have been victimized by what appears to be a Dummy Package Scam involving 3 cell phones purchased on Ebay and paid for via PayPal. Neither Ebay nor PayPal gave more than a cursory review of our filings and rejected out of hand our claims including Appeals. Clearly their Protection Plans are at best flimsy and at worst a Hoax.

Sadly, the phones were purchased from 3 different, first time Sellers who shipped them from the same Post Office via USPS on separate days spread over 2 weeks. We have detailed USPS Tracking Reports that clearly demonstrate false addresses for receipt. PayPal's response is that they have Strong documentation from the Sellers that Delivery occurred, and our only recourse is to contact the Seller.

Good Luck with that. All emails to the Sellers either by Hotmail or Gmail were promptly bounced back as Undeliverable. The point is that Delivery may have occurred but not to our address - a subtle but critical detail that continues to be overlooked by both Ebay and PayPal.

Sound Familiar? Sure looks to us like Mail Fraud.

The next steps that we are considering are to 1) File Report with USPIS 2) File Report with local Police 3) Contact FBI Mail Fraud Division.

Our questions are if anyone has had a similar, recent experience and was there a successful outcome? i.e. did you get your money back from either Ebay or PayPal? What additional steps should we consider?

Looks like a long slog, but after all we are out nearly $1000.

Many thanks,

---

Hi @erwina11_3 - These types of things don't happen too often on eBay and I'm sad to hear this has been your experience. As you mentioned, our options to help are extremely limited if we're passed the 30-day coverage window through our Money Back Guarantee. Along with that, we aren't able to override or open a case once a PayPal claim has been filed. 

I am terribly sorry for any frustration but you would need to continue to work with PayPal directly or seek third-party options as suggested to have this resolved further. Please do keep us posted and I hope you're able to get this taken care of shortly.

[erwina11_3]

Thank-you very much, Heidi, for your concern. We understand that the matter is out of Ebay's hands at this point. This is such a shame because all of our other experiences on Ebay have always been so positive. Never in the past have we been unable to contact a seller and resolve any issues. This is very unusual and has all the earmarks of genuine MAIL FRAUD. 

So at this point we are collecting more complete documentation on this matter with the intention of filing formal mail fraud complaints with USPIS, and the Local Police Department. We understand that the USPIS will work in conjuction with the FBI, so we do not need to contact them directly.

It has occurred to us that Paypal's business practices regarding claims and reimbursement is effectively complicit with this type of fraud. This is because of Paypal's decision to base their decisions upon only the zipcode and not the actual delivery address. As long as this loophole is not effectively closed, fraudsters will continue to exploit us. It is so sad that this sort of thing mars our wonderful community of honest buyers and sellers. 

Ebay provides a wonderful service to all of us.

[needleinahaystack714714]

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@erwina11_3 wrote:
We really appreciate your informative replies. Could you explain this part further?

"I also recommend discussing with your CC company a chargeback code that will not fall under Paypal's seller protection. The idea isn't to punish Paypal by just getting a refund, the idea is to get the money back FROM THE SELLER. There are actually CB codes that are almost impossible for the seller to win against... That's the one you want to choose."

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When you contact your CC company, they will be able to best advise you on which chargeback code to open... Discuss codes 53 and 85 with them.

[baggs-2024]

This happens ALL THE TIME on ebay.  Mostly international sellers.  They ship an envelope with tracking to a business in your zip and done.  Any INR claim is auto closed in their favor, and they never ship using an ebay label because it would be right in front of ebay, not that they would check.

The only way to beat this is to get the exact scan of the item's ACTUAL delivery address and its weight, because chances are they do not match what should have been shipped.  Sometimes you are able to get the actual pkg itself.   then you simply return what you got via a SNAD claim.  Easy peasy.  

[chrysylys]

Have your PO dig further. There is a recent program announced indicating that they have pictures of items as they pass their scanners. If they can produce those pictures, you can see the size of the package which may help.

This explains the program somewhat, but there has been word that it is already in effect in some places and there may be pictures even if the program hasn't begun in your area:

https://informeddelivery.usps.com/box/pages/intro/start.action

[chrysylys]

When you talk to your PO, be sure to tell them that eBay did nothing and offered no support at all thereby helping to perpetrate future similar fraudulent actions.

[axelenie0]

I understand Paypal found in the seller's favor, I can read but I also think something's missing.

From my perspective it doesn't make sense once the seller has to go and make a physical change to the "Ship-To" address from within the shipping window, doing so places them outside of the seller protection scheme.

Perhaps the seller used their own shipping label and entered the tracking number into ebay?

If so I still don't understand how they'd perpetrate the fraud, not that I don't get the logistics of it.

Also of interest...

Why would ebay have closed the first INR case in the seller's favor?

Is this common?

Here's my issue...

I've been reading the boards and lately there has been a rash of cases that are closing contrary to natural flow. Yet it has always been my experience, the computer handles these cases and it is always black or white, right or wrong (and not how we see things) but zeros and ones, it boils down to choices and selections and options that were made at the time of the sale and some as long ago as when the item was first listed.

Every option a buyer and a seller selects during the listing and the sale and then during a subsequent case (whether INR or SNAD) affects the outcome, however it has been my experience so long a set of choices in however many cases remain the same then the outcome would also be the same.

Every single time.

So unfortunately when I read about yet another case that has gone contrary to natural selection, that tells me we're not getting the whole story or something's missing or some other thing is not happening.

Another way to say it is...

If this type of fraud were so easy to perpetrate there would be thread after thread about it.

You can believe me that.

[baggs-2024]

There are tons of threads about this issue.  The seller would win because the pkg shows as Delivered to teh buyer's zip code.  The zip code has lots of addresses in it.  the label would not have been purchased using ebay's shipping system, so they have no official record of the actual address that teh seller used.  As long as it is in teh same zip as the buyer, they win when it shows Delivered.

[Anonymous]

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@baggs-2017 wrote:

There are tons of threads about this issue.  The seller would win because the pkg shows as Delivered to teh buyer's zip code.  The zip code has lots of addresses in it.  the label would not have been purchased using ebay's shipping system, so they have no official record of the actual address that teh seller used.  As long as it is in teh same zip as the buyer, they win when it shows Delivered.

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Hi @baggs-2024 - While we aren't able to step in and help this OP given the timeframe, we do have protection options available for buyers in this same circumstance. We would need to obtain documentation from the shipping carrier that the package was delivered to a different address but we do have additional protections. 

[baggs-2024]

Secret protection?  What is required?  If the buyer gets proof that the item "delivered" was a first class envelope?  This ONLY happens when the label is not purchased through ebay.  And the carrier has the GPS scan as proof of where the item was actually delivered.  A letter outlining this would suffice?  this happens ALL THE TIME.  Many buyers come here and complain about this everyday.