BEWARE EBAY SELLERS

[bruce.carlson]

HI ALL- I HAVE BEEN AN EBAY SELLER FOR 15 YEARS AND HAVE A 4000+ FEEDBACK RATING AND I AM A TOP RATED POWERSELLER.  A BUYER BOUGHT 6 GRADED MICKEY MANTLE BASEBALL CARDS FROM ME.  HE TRIED TO RESELL THEM TO MAKE A QUICK BUCK, AND WHEN THEY DIDN'T SELL FOR HIS PRICE HE WANTED TO SEND THEM BACK TO ME FOR A REFUND.  ALTHOUGH MY RETURN POLICY STATED THAT I WOULD ONLY REFUND IF I MADE A MISTAKE ON STATING THE GRADE (THESE CARDS ALL ALL PSA GRADED) I ALLOWED FOR THE REFUND PROCESS TO BEGIN BECAUSE I WANTED TO BE THE BETTER PERSON AND JUST GET MY CARDS BACK AND MOVE ON.  WELL THE BUYER JUST SENT ME BACK AN ENVELOPE WITH 2 WORTHLESS CARDS IN IT!!  I HAVE OPENED 6 CASES AGAINST THE BUYER FOR NOT RETURNING MY ITEMS.  NOW EBAY HAS TAKEN THE MONEY OUT OF MY PAYPAL ACCOUNT BECAUSE THEY THINK THE BUYER RETURNED MY CARDS.  WHEN I CALLED EBAY TO DISPUTE THIS I WAS TOLD THAT A BUYER CAN SEND BACK AN EMPTY ENVELOPE AND CAN KEEP THE ITEMS AND GET A REFUND BECAUSE HOW DOES EBAY KNOW THAT I AM NOT KEEPING THE CARDS AND NOT WANTING TO GIVE A REFUND.  SHE TRIED TO MAKE ME OUT AS THE CRIMINAL!!!!  NOW THIS BUYER IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO KEEP THE 6 GRADED MICKEY MANTLE CARDS AND THE $644 HE PAID ME DUE TO THE REFUND.  I THEN ASKED THE EBAY REPRESENTATIVE SO YOURE SAYING I CAN BUY A $10,000 COMIC BOOK, SAY I WANT A REFUND, SEND BACK AN EMPTY ENVELOPE WITH A TRACKING NUMBER ON IT AND GET MY MONEY BACK AND KEEP THE COMIC?  SHE SAID YES, THAT IS THE RISK YOU TAKE WHEN BUYING AND SELLING ON AN ONLINE MARKETPLACE.  WE AS SELLERS NEED TO BE AWARE OF THIS!!!  FROM NOW ON I WILL NOT BE OFFERING RETURNS.  IT'S JUST A SHAME THAT EBAY DOES NOT CARE ABOUT ITS DEDICATED AND HONEST SELLERS AND CATERS TO CRIMINAL SCAM ARTISTS THAT ARE LOOKING TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF PEOPLE JUST TRYING TO MAKE A LIVING FOR THEIR FAMILIES.  

[vintagecraze50]

Do you have this person's address telephone number? If  you cannot get assistance through Ebay you can file a civil lawsuit. Basically this is a small claims court proceedure. You must first file a police report against the buyer. You also should do a postal fraud report with the carrier. This will be a long drawn out process. You can also submit the police reports to Ebay and appeal the case. It is extremely unfortunate that these things happen here and I wish you the best whatever you should decide to do. No one at Ebay can tell exactly what happened in this transaction. Only you know what happened. Do whatever you can.

[vintagecraze50]

Sometimes, not always if a scammer is aware that you will be taking matters like this seriously, your cards just might show up. It is certainly worth it for that much cash, and it will serve as an example that may at some time or another discourage people of this caliber to do their dirty business here. Again, so terrible sorry and wish you the best.

[bruce.carlson]

thanks guys for the replies and support.  this now has become a matter of principle as ebay just totally blew me off and has already ruled in favor of the buyer.  I will do everything I can to create visiblility on this so others do not get scammed like I did.  Will be calling the Wisconsin police dept shortly!!

[vintagecraze50]

Yes, and if you need help on how to file an out of state suit go to NOLO on the web. I just went there and they give helpful info on jurisdictions and proceedures for filing with an out of state buyer. Some states have jurisdictions that do not allow this some do. Do your research. Sometimes you have to appear in the state it is filed, sometimes the scammer has to come to your state. BOOYAH!!! TO YOU.

[a_c_green]

---

@bruce.carlson wrote:

Will be calling the Wisconsin police dept shortly!!

---

If you haven't already called your local PD, do that first. They will take your report and give you a report number that you can cite as a reference when phoning (what I assume is) the buyer's local PD in Wisconsin. 

You'll want that report number as it acts as a kind of credibility check for you. The Wisconsin PD needs to know at minimum that you're not simply J. Random Frootloop who files reports every time he gets into an on-line argument with someone, and this way, you've got some verifiable reference to say that your PD talked with you and did not find you to be a nut. (They're not saying that the buyer is a crook either, of course. Don't overestimate the value of the report number, but have it available.) Don't forget to get with your postal inspector and give him the details as well. Please give us updates here whenever there's something new to report.

[bruce.carlson]

local police spoke to buyer who lied to his face and said he had returned my cards.  it is now a he said/she said situation.  police officer (who was awesome by the way.  thank you for all of your help!!) suggested I call my local court and find out about small claims court filing, but I'll have to go to wisconsin and appear there.  wish I had the unlimited resourses to chase these crooks.  the way I'm looking at it now is the local police are aware of what happened and maybe that will prevent this guy from ripping someone else off like he did me.  the only problem is it seems the criminals are always so much smarter than regular stiffs like me.  we just keep getting ripped off.  I got on both ends though (from the criminal and from ebay) so it hurts a bit more.  I lost my great cards and my $644.

AND THE MOST TROUBLING THING IS WHEN I HAD 2 DIFFERENT EBAY REPS TELL ME THAT I COULD BUY AN ITEM ON EBAY, RECEIVE THE ITEM, REQUEST A REFUND THROUGH EBAY, SEND BACK AN EMPTY ENVELOPE WITH A TRACKING NUMBER ON IT, AND ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO KEEP THE ITEM AND GET MY MONEY REFUNDED!!  THAT SHOULD SCARE EVERY SINGLE EBAY SELLER BECAUSE THERE IS NO WAY THE SELLER CAN PROVE THAT A BUYER DID NOT SEND YOUR ITEM BACK.  UPLOADING A  TRACKING NUMBER IN EBAYS RESOLUTION CENTER ALONE MEETS EBAYS REQUIREMENT FOR GETTING A REFUND. SELLERS BEWARE!!!!!

[duchess-at-speakeasy]

Don't forget to file a complaint with the USPS postal inspectors. Using the mail with intent to defraud is a federal offense! Jail time, fines and denial of mail service are among the penalties.

You also should file an IC3 report (internet fraud). And at the "grass roots" level, contact local media -- many radio-TV stations have a "consumer fraud" department to help recover goods or money and make sure the scammer gets punished. Scammers do not like publicity on the evening news, with cameras and reporters showing up at their door.

As for eBay itself, a complaint to the San Jose BBB can put pressure on the company to refund the money to you.

~~C~~

[ampexelectronics69]

THANK YOU FOR THE  ADVISE  , I ALSO SEE THIS PROBLEM  . ITS TIME TO CHANGE . MABE YOU CAN ALSO ANSWER  WHAT GIVES E BAY THE RIGHT TO CHARGE FOR A PERCENTAGE  OF SHIPPING ITS PAID FOR  BY THE BUYER AND  RUN BY THE US GOVERMENT  THAT PAYMENT COMES OUT OF YOUR PROFIT   

[sidney1500]

Same thing here! Except mine was a ring that was altered and not send back in orginal packaging, I opened case, they said that I could not prove that it was altered, even though they had orginal pictures, and the returned pictures, they gave her the money back, then I appealed and won with a message that I would get a refund, case closed in my favor, well guess what the case is not closed and they are still reviewing!!!!!!!!!! But I got the email that I was, been on the phone with ebay 10 days now fumming at this point.... Now I have to wait another 7 days before they decide the case. This is why sellers are not happy and leaving. I am done with this **bleep**.

[theheadphonecompany]

First ... though its not much consolation ... TRY and have a good Thanksgiving.

After you've eaten some turkey, please comback and read the rest of this post .....

Ok now that you're back ..... Welcome to the world of eBay returns fraud. What you described can happen and does happen to sellers on eBay  24/7 with eBay's permission and help for the buyer.

If you have a returns policy of any type (ie "you accept returns") then any buyer can decide that they no longer want your item, no longer have any use for it, dont like its color, what its made of, dont like the machine it was printed on, dont like who president was the day it was made etc - and it makes NO difference (to eBay). Because you chose to accept returns - thats enough for eBay, period.

While eBay TELLS YOU that this is your business, the truth is - according to them - its NOT. When you sell on eBay (its purposely not clear in the TOS/UA due to lawyerspeak and sheer terror that people will figure out "the truth" about selling on eBay) you surrender a majority (if not all) of your rights to eBay.

That means they can tell you how to list, what to list, when to list it, they can hide your listing, demote your listing, and force you to do what ever they want, period - and that includes returns.

Small sellers (ie those who arent major manufacturers, distributors, LARGE sellers, Chinese sellers) have "different rules" then the others I just mentioned. Why? because small sellers are NOISE ie expendable. Big sellers can do as they please, get negatives removed, get top placement, and have different rules then the rest of us. eBay will tell you its NOT TRUE and that I and everyone else on these boards are all crazy .... but are we REALLY?

eBay wants a sale to be "a perfect world" - ie a smooth transaction. They want uniformity in listing proceedures,  they want uniformity in picture size/color/shape, and they want NO HASSLES to buyers visa via returns.  If a buyer says he wants to return something - its like Moses on the mount, like Jesus at the last supper, or Mohamed before he went back to heaven - the buyers words/requests are THE GOSPEL! and you better do it OR ELSE!

Since sellers are "there to be used, abused and then discarded", eBay expects you to "take one for the team" (and you can read Trintons posts to that effect in other threads) when an issue arrises. eBay (incorrectly) feels that placating "liar buyers" and stealing from sellers is a GOOD thing for the platform. Yes its BIZZARE but HERE thats not suprising (any longer).

These ideas come from the top on down - people who have never been in retail (except maybe McDonalds), wholesale, etail, ecommerce etc. They just know "the buyer is always right" ... even when the buyer is wrong - and they expect YOU the seller to eat any issues (not eBay ...YOU).

So yes, if you sell XXX to a buyer and you get back a rock - eBay doesnt care. If you get back an empty box - eBay doesnt care. If it was an expensive item and you are really hurting - eBay ... just DOESNT care.

eBay truely believes that sellers are a dime a dozen. People (sellers) are just "foaming at the mouth", dying, waiting to sell their "stuff" on the platform - and therefore if you leave (due to loss) "so what, theres a million more just like you!".

Mind you a NO RETURNS policy doesnt help much either, but its better then NOTHING. eBay gives sellers NO TOOLS to protect themselves on site - btw did I mention that eBay SWEARS they are your partners AND "we are just a venue" (so they told the courts MANY times)(like in France when sued by Vitton - they SWORE they had NOTHING TO DO WITH LISTINGS AT ALL) (but I digress). In reality, most times you have to protect yourself from EBAY as much as you do the buyer, since eBay takes their word %99.9 of the time.

eBay will ONLY consider your side if you can some how (get the buyer on crack, hold a gun to his head (not a real gun) etc) and get him to admit in an email that hes pulling a fast one on you. Yes eBay believes that their buyers will admit in email to being a crook (sheer lunacy from the boys in San Jose)!

All a buyer has to do is say "SNAD ME!" (patent pending LOL) and eBay JUMPS to empty your pocket/wallet/bank account. The SNAD complaint doesnt have to be true, its your word vs his/hers, and sellers word is worth the same as a drug dealer, rapist, murderer etc and isnt to be believed.

To quote The Rock (hes in the new Disney movie btw) "it doesnt matter what you think/say", and to eBay it DOESNT. Blah blah you didnt get your item back, its different, its broken, the guy took parts off it, he kept 1/2 of it .... NONE of this means anything to YOUR PARTNERS in San Jose ('cause like seriously - what are you going to do about it anyways?)

SNAD and eBays Money back guarantee program override ANY and EVERY thing else, period.

eBays sales gre %3 and Amazons %58 and thats REALLY what this is all about. eBay needs to keep buyers on the site (even though they put ads on the site that take them offsite - but no one ever said that the people in San Jose were SMART) and making them happy "keeps them on the site".

This is why most people (and I beg you to now join this club) NEVER (go to sea) (so says Gilbert & Sullivan) sell things online "that they cant afford to loose). Why? 'cause selling on eBay is like walking through a mine field, blindfolded, carrying a 100 pound backpack. At ANY moment it WILL go "boom".  Selling on eBay is akin (really) to holding a live grenade,  pulling the pin and holding it for AT LEAST 30 days ... since the SLIGHTEST tremor (buyers feeling about your item) will cause it to go BOOM. After you make the sale, get the money from Paypal, ship the item - then and ONLY THEN does the fun begin. THe sale ISNT over till at least 30 days pass and it can drag on till 180 days since eBays evil twin Paypal is involved.

Dont fret though - the LAST CEO got a $23 MILLION Golden Parachute when HE LEFT eBay (to go to Paypal to institute his personal "love" of sellers there) and so your FVFs on this sale - wont go to waste.

What you ask does eBay say about the fraud and theft that plauges their site ? (that they "help with"). Well, they say "nothing". They tell you (usually comming from non english speaking foreigners) that "taking losses is part of business so here take one". So nice of them "Im sure".

eBay  (if you call them enough times), will tell you that since they dont know what you sent out (funny how they know things are SNAD when they reach the buyer, but they dont know what you got back)(yes its an oxymoron from the San Jose morons) and they WOULDNT DARE call the buyer a liar! 

Again of course they KNOW EVERYTHING about "Returns" ... (LMAO yes they really say they know this stuff - with a straight face even) except when it comes to your taking a loss on a sale due to fraud/theft. You UNasked for "partner" rides to the rescue AGAIN ... NOT.

Meanwhile - listen to the other fols here who are giving you good advice and rethink what you sell and to whom you sell when on eBay.

best regards and good selling

[bruce.carlson · Accepted solution]

UPDATE - on November 23rd I received an email from ebay that the buyer who stole my items and got his money refunded had been flagged by ebay for suspicious behavior and is no longer a registered user on their site. I called ebay to inquire about this email and to ask if I would finally get a refund  AND EBAY REFUNDED MY $655 IMMEDIATELY!!!! It is not often that these stories have a happy ending. I just want to thank ebay for their assistance and for making the right decision to reverse their case decisions and refund my money in full!!! hopefully that criminal's days of ripping people off are over!! JUSTICE IS SERVED!!!!

[theheadphonecompany]

Lord its a Christmas miracle ! 😃

Good Going - its great that you - one of the GOOD GUYS, got what he deserved - his money back.

"almost makes me a believer in the cult of eBay" .... not!

[glyph01]

Guess you you told them with your long post and they flipped the script for the OP.  Happy Turkey Day, folks. 

[otasteandc]

Your perseverance paid off.  I am so glad you got your money back.  I am so sorry that you had to go through all of this.  Have a Merry Christmas.