which ebay we should finally contact

[rati-store]

We had a case in Italy and they closed it in favor of buyer. There is a lot to discuss about it but what can we do now? We have account in US, listings in ebay.de and case in Italy. Ebay Italy made bad mistake. We have tried to discuss with them but no answers anymore. They require us to speak Italy, which we can't. In chat with them they asked us to contact ebay.com. So we have made so but no answers. We could try to contact ebay.de but we have to discuss with robot which is more than useless and second alternative is that they call to us. We don't speak Germany so well that we could survive from phone discussion. We would like to make a claim against ebay but we don't know how to start. We know that in user agreement we have promised not to sue them but in the other hand hiring a lawyer is not same as in US and we would like to agree case in another way. What could we do? Should we try to contact and how and who in US, Germany or Italy?

[rati-store]

Many thanks for your message. There is a lot what we can agree but not all. Unfortunately we made 2 different discussions and it went of rails. Originally our meaning was something else but now we are in situation where we have to repeat same things in both discussions. Sorry about that. 

You can see the other discussion here: https://community.ebay.com/t5/Returns/fair-decision-from-ebay/m-p/34203929#M41649  There are many comments which could help to answer to your message, if you only have time, please visit there. 

It is very difficult to believe that buyer was so angry with us that he lied so much. We have had buyers who have supported us against ebay but of course also many difficult cases. 

What does that mean? You had tracking confirming delivery? What required information did the buyer not provide?

As said it was another case. We had tracking included in that delivery. Buyer ordered a module from us and opened a request because it did not work. It did not work because it was not programmed, that was told in our listing. We asked buyer to deliver a photo of machine shield that we could check if module was right to his machine. We also offered a new module but we wanted to get information before sending another one "which is not working". There were several other details which buyer could not tell. He also sent photo of broken package but we knew that it had nothing to do with "broken" module. He should have told to transport company that package was broken when he got it but he didi not do it. We also had rule that buyer pays return costs. This was a buyer who did not want to help in anyway. We think that he did not want a new delivery because also the new module was without program. We explained everything to ebay but they just said that we did not agree what to do during 3 days. We were in trap. Buyer lied to ebay and ebay believed buyer, we know that it happens often/always. We know that it goes like that and we asked from ebay how we can avoid such situation with modules but no answer. It is weird that seller can't do anything when buyer decides to lie and get money back from their own mistakes. The story is long and we save you from further details. One thing we can still mention and it was the appealing of the case. It was total joke and we believe that robot took care of that also in that case. The answer to appeal came back in less than 10 minutes and it is clear that human can't do it so quickly. So appealing seems to be also useless in many cases.  We demanded Ebay Italy to show where certain details concerning decision where mentioned in their help pages but they where not able to do it. 

[rati-store]

You can't go further.
There are also other opinions, although we cannot know in advance whether the advice will work or not. Isn't it sad if you can't complain about mistakes?

Ebay policy already states that tracking not provided before estimated delivery may result in refund.
What do you actually mean. Can you point us to a point in the ebay instructions.
But if ebay don't want to wait until Buyer is asking them to step in, why they then give for example this advice:
"However, if you and the seller are working on a solution, you do not need to ask us to intervene as soon as 3 business days have passed. Most sellers want to help their buyers, so if you keep talking, you can give them a little time to figure things out. Check the seller's answers regularly and find out what you need to do next.”

Tracking codes are not needed if ebay allows the buyer and seller to handle the matter between themselves, as they tried to do now. The presence or absence of tracking codes make it easier for ebay to make a decision in favor of which decision is made. There was no need for that now, because the seller promised to return the money. Excerpt from the discussions:
14.11.2023 16:20 ebay to seller: "Your Buyer opened a request: Request 5326688139"
14.11.2023 20:31 Seller responded to buyer:
…..Different advices and then in end of message:
"We ask you to be patient and visit the local post office. If items are not there, please let us know and we will refund your money.”
14.11.2023 21:58 Buyer answered: "Thank you for your reply. The address is correct, let me check again with our local post office. Best,”

Again...ebay will refund if you never provided tracking as part of ebay money back guarantee.
I don't think we understand what you mean. A tracking code is still not needed if the buyer and seller agree. The Ebay instructions also tell you what to do if there are no tracking codes. Must write available information. We provided a photo of the letter and the photo showed the name, address, price and exact delivery time. BOT can't read the photo, but at the latest in the complaint phase, you'd think someone else would investigate the matter (as someone claimed to have investigated, but gave wrong information).
According to ebay policy, we are not able to deliver even the first package, because we do not get a tracking code from a carrier approved by ebay. If nothing else matters, other than the tracking code, then those who for one reason or another cannot follow this policy should not be accepted as sellers. So far, this is not the case, and ebay therefore also has to follow its own instructions.

Again ebay already looked at the information that was provided and since you never provided tracking information ... YOU LOST>after all you took the risk in preemptively shipping withOUT tracking..
So you mean that ebay can make an appeal on your behalf, that sounds absolutely insane. Why would the entire appeal even be possible, if the customer could not present his point of view on why the appeal should be rejected. How can you say YOU LOST when we hadn't even performed anything. In other words: how can you lose a lawsuit in court if you haven't even filed one?

It would be a great thing if the world was ideal and equal in every way. If we had the same opportunities to use tracking codes as other providers offering the same things, then of course we would use them. It is true that the absence of tracking codes increases the risk of being abused. However, the greater risk is operating on a platform that does not follow its own instructions, and does not give other parties the opportunity to correct mistakes made by the owners of the platform. The fact, that the big and mighty do what they like without caring about others, is not called justice but arbitrariness.

[janet9988]

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@rati-store wrote:

You can't go further.
There are also other opinions, although we cannot know in advance whether the advice will work or not. Isn't it sad if you can't complain about mistakes?

Ebay policy already states that tracking not provided before estimated delivery may result in refund.
What do you actually mean. Can you point us to a point in the ebay instructions.
But if ebay don't want to wait until Buyer is asking them to step in, why they then give for example this advice:
"However, if you and the seller are working on a solution, you do not need to ask us to intervene as soon as 3 business days have passed. Most sellers want to help their buyers, so if you keep talking, you can give them a little time to figure things out. Check the seller's answers regularly and find out what you need to do next.”

Tracking codes are not needed if ebay allows the buyer and seller to handle the matter between themselves, as they tried to do now. The presence or absence of tracking codes make it easier for ebay to make a decision in favor of which decision is made. There was no need for that now, because the seller promised to return the money. Excerpt from the discussions:
14.11.2023 16:20 ebay to seller: "Your Buyer opened a request: Request 5326688139"
14.11.2023 20:31 Seller responded to buyer:
…..Different advices and then in end of message:
"We ask you to be patient and visit the local post office. If items are not there, please let us know and we will refund your money.”
14.11.2023 21:58 Buyer answered: "Thank you for your reply. The address is correct, let me check again with our local post office. Best,”

Again...ebay will refund if you never provided tracking as part of ebay money back guarantee.
I don't think we understand what you mean. A tracking code is still not needed if the buyer and seller agree. The Ebay instructions also tell you what to do if there are no tracking codes. Must write available information. We provided a photo of the letter and the photo showed the name, address, price and exact delivery time. BOT can't read the photo, but at the latest in the complaint phase, you'd think someone else would investigate the matter (as someone claimed to have investigated, but gave wrong information).

.

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  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ see the very bottom of my screenshot?  Right above red the arrows? This is information I have already provided to you.

Ebay may step in without the buyer asking if there is no valid tracking available.

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/ebay-money-back-guarantee-policy/ebay-money-back-guarantee-policy...

here is the link.

If a buyer never opens a request why would ebay step in?

[rati-store]

Ebay may step in without the Buyer asking if there is no valid tracking available.
You are absolutely right with that comment and link to ebay pages. But there is a big but, if ebay tells in their message to the seller that the Buyer has asked them to step in, that is what the seller has to believe and handle if he wants to appeal. If ebay steps in because there is no valid tracking available, then ebay should tell that "we step in because seller doesn't have valid tracking". It is easy to ebay to send right comments why they step in, why use the wrong expression?

If a Buyer never opens a request why would ebay step in?
That is good question, we wonder that ourselves. For the sake of clarity, let us repeat that the buyer opened a request, but did not ask ebay to review the case after 3 days. The word request is used in both cases. When ebay has to step in, it becomes the defect that we want removed, because ebay didn't need to step in after 3 days, because the matter had already been agreed between the buyer and the seller. As we have already mentioned elsewhere, can the BOT's algorithm be so poorly designed that it does not sufficiently take into account all the alternative actions that ebay's instructions allow. When the buyer and seller argue with ebay's representatives, it may also happen that not all ebay's representatives are clear about what their BOT decides and why.

We still believe that the buyer did not ask ebay to step in after 3 days waiting time from opening the request. However, if the buyer had requested it, then ebay should take into account everything else that has been said about the request. The seller did everything possible and is innocent of the escalation of the situation, and the innocent should not be punished.

[janet9988]

---

@rati-store wrote:

Ebay may step in without the Buyer asking if there is no valid tracking available.
You are absolutely right with that comment and link to ebay pages. But there is a big but, if ebay tells in their message to the seller that the Buyer has asked them to step in, that is what the seller has to believe and handle if he wants to appeal. If ebay steps in because there is no valid tracking available, then ebay should tell that "we step in because seller doesn't have valid tracking". It is easy to ebay to send right comments why they step in, why use the wrong expression?

If a Buyer never opens a request why would ebay step in?
That is good question, we wonder that ourselves. For the sake of clarity, let us repeat that the buyer opened a request, but did not ask ebay to review the case after 3 days. The word request is used in both cases. When ebay has to step in, it becomes the defect that we want removed, because ebay didn't need to step in after 3 days, because the matter had already been agreed between the buyer and the seller. As we have already mentioned elsewhere, can the BOT's algorithm be so poorly designed that it does not sufficiently take into account all the alternative actions that ebay's instructions allow. When the buyer and seller argue with ebay's representatives, it may also happen that not all ebay's representatives are clear about what their BOT decides and why.

We still believe that the buyer did not ask ebay to step in after 3 days waiting time from opening the request. However, if the buyer had requested it, then ebay should take into account everything else that has been said about the request. The seller did everything possible and is innocent of the escalation of the situation, and the innocent should not be punished.

---

The buyer DID open a request. Ebay would never have automatically refunded otherwise. Ebay automatically refunded because YOU never provided tracking at all.

Ebay saw that you never provided a tracking number and then ebay stepped in WITHOUT the buyer asking ebay to step in and refunded the buyer. The buyer did not ask ebay to step in yet. Ebay did refund according to ebay policy when sellers do not provide tracking information when the buyer inquires about not receiving the item they paid for.

Simple ... I am still nt sure what you do not understand. 

 I am out.

[rati-store]

We agree mainly what you try to convince but there seems to be also something what you don't understand.

Buyer opened a request, you are right.

This is the request which buyer can open if he has not got ordered items in time.

Ebay got reason to automatically refund, you are right.

After 3 days from date of request ebay can step in and refund if buyer or seller has requested them to do so or without request in some cases. It seems that BOT does not wait and is refunding automatically if some one is not stopping it in somehow or if tracking code has not been added in their files.

Ebay automatically refunded because we never provided tracking at all. You are right.

As said, BOT seems to be programmed to do so if someone is not stopping it.

Ebay saw that you never provided a tracking number and then ebay stepped in WITHOUT the buyer asking ebay to step in and refunded the buyer.

You are right. After 3 days time from date of request ebay can step in if buyer or seller request them to do it or they can step in also without request.

They did it but they told that buyer has asked them to review the case. We believe that their BOT made the decision automatically as you said.

But why they say that buyer has asked them to review the case if he had not? Should they just say that BOT made the decision or something like that. Why to mix heads of buyer and seller by saying that buyer has asked ebay to step in. Buyer is still abashed. We are not so supriced because we have seen their behaviour earlier many times. We did not understand before this case with sure that it is their BOT which is always making decision.

Demand to step in or not, was the biggest argue between ebay and seller. Ebay has never confessed that buyer did not ask them to step in.

We understand what you try to tell but from here starts the story which you don't understand.

We have told these things earlier but let us repeat them.

Ebay gives possibility, at least in theory with advices from their web pages, to agree things without

tracking codes.

There is no need for tracking codes if buyer and seller can agree case without ebay that steps in.

From ebay pages:

If you have not set up tracking, we recommend that you find an amicable solution with the buyer, such as a refund or re-delivery of the item.

We have no reason to believe that we didn't have amicable solutionwith with buyer. It was clearly agreed but BOT did not understand it.

Ask eBay for help:

If the seller has not responded to you within 3 working days or has not offered you an acceptable solution, you can ask us to intervene.

However, if you and the seller work together to find a solution, you do not need to ask us to intervene after 3 days. Most sellers really want to solve buyers' problems, so if you're still talking about it, give it a little more time. time to clear things up. However, you have 21 days to ask us to intervene.

The BOT is not programmed to understand all details which can occur when buyer and seller are working to solve the case. When there are ways to agree without tracking codes, why BOT is not programmed to notify that. It is stupid to give advices in help pages and then not allow to follow them.

Why ebay did not check what has really happened/agreed after they got to know it when seller contacted them? We have a good reason to believe why they could or did not want to do anything: they did not want to reveal that even they did not know themself that BOT had first stepped in without asking and then BOT automatically made appeal in behalf of buyer and rejected it from same reason: no tracking. You don't have to believe that buyer did not ask ebay to step in but you can be 100% sure that seller did not appeal the case 29th November as it is staded in ebay's files.

Ebay's system is so automated that even their workers are out from it like snowball.

Simple, as you said, there is no need to check if there are tracking codes or not, if buyer and seller have agreed what to do. There is no need for ebay to refund if seller has already promised to do it and buyer has totally 21 days to ask help from ebay, if seller does not do like agreed.

[kensgiftshop]

Does it really matter if the buyer did or didn't ask Ebay to step in?

Buyer filed an INR and you couldn't provide tracking showing it was delivered and you didn't refund the buyer.

If they did ask Ebay to step in and they had to refund, you would have got a defect.

If they didn't ask Ebay to step in and you didn't refund the buyer and Ebay had to, you would have got a defect.

Next time, if a buyer files an INR,  just refund the buyer when you don't use tracking.

[rati-store]

Does it really matter if the Buyer did or didn't ask Ebay to step in?
That is a good question. It seems that it doesn't matter.
But when you think about it in terms of the course of the whole event, it is absolutely essential. If ebay had stepped in without being asked, as ebay has the right to do, and reimbursed the buyer, and had not claimed that the buyer asked for ebay step in, then the situation would be different. But even in that case ebay should have noticed that the buyer and seller had agreed on how to proceed. Something had been agreed upon, as ebay encourages, and both parties seemed to be satisfied, at least based on the correspondence. Even after ebay's decision, the buyer assured at least 2 times that he doesn't know what happened and he would have been willing to wait.
At the latest when the seller contacted ebay, they should have noticed that an agreement had been made regarding the procedure.
In itself, returning the money was not wrong, but when ebay has to intervene, in this case it affects the seller's seller performance.

If they did ask Ebay to step in and they had to refund, you would have got a defect.
Buyer did not ask ebay to step in and we got a defect. Ebay is the only part who has all knowledge in their use. Ebay workers either lie or they just don't know what they are talking about. In those 2 cases, where we proved that ebay stepped in without asking, in their files is marking that Buyer has asked ebay to step in and also in this case there is a marking. We are sure (can we be?) that ebay workers don't know that markings are coming automatically after BOT has made a decision, not before a decision.

Ebay should have noticed the agreement and noted that the seller did not do anything contrary to ebay's instructions, because ebay also takes into account in its instructions cases where a tracking code is not used.

Next time, if a Buyer files an INR, just refund the Buyer when you don't use tracking.
You must be joking. There is at least 3 days time to clear out what to do before refunding. It has happened that deliveries have come during those 3 days. Buyer might like to get new delivery instead of money, they need ordered items, not rotate money there and back. The profits are so small that we simply can't afford to throw money around.

Next time and after that, until the end of time, ebay should guarantee that users of their platform are safe when they follow the rules. Ebay is what it is, but it will never get better, no matter how we look past their mistakes.

We had a "small" mistake in our earlier reply to janet9988:

…..they did not want to reveal that even they did not know themselves that BOT had first stepped in without asking and then BOT automatically made an appeal on behalf of SELLER and rejected it from the same reason: no tracking. You don't have to believe that Buyer did not ask ebay to step in, but you can be 100% sure that seller did not appeal the case on November 29th as it is stated in ebay's files.

Ebay BOT seems to make all kinds of decisions so everyone should be careful. In the other hand it doesn't help if you are careful because ebay workers don't care a **bleep** what is happening. And you are right, they don't change anything.

[kensgiftshop]

Yes, they want the seller and buyer to try and work out any problems, but they want it done as soon as possible.
You don't have to refund as soon as they file and INR, but refund in the time Ebay gives you, before they step in and refund.
Even if the buyer didn't ask Ebay to step in, you got the defect because you didn't handle the refund in the time Ebay gave you.
If you continue to ship without tracking, you'll continue to have these problems.
Tracking is about the only protection a seller has, why give it up to save a little money?

If you had tracking and it showed recent movement, they would have put the case on hold a few days to see if it was delivered.

[rati-store]

We understand your purpose very well and we agree on many things. We are not very confident that ebay will change its decision, but regardless, ebay has acted against its instructions. However, things are not exactly as you say.

Now let's go over a few things one more time.

If you continue to ship without tracking, you'll continue to have these problems.
Tracking is about the only protection a seller has, why give it up to save a little money?
We use tracking when it is possible, but we have no change to use tracking which is valid for ebay. They tell in their web pages that only trackings from transport companies which are integrated to ebay are acceptable. We don't have our own ebay, we have an account in the US and listings in Germany. We told earlier that we don't get tracking to letters which we use for smallest parts. If we use packages instead of letters, the price difference in cheapest is around €10. Is it little money? Well it depends what you are selling but you can be sure that we don't get any order. Remember that we have to pay also profit to ebay from total costs as well as VAT.

Tracking costs are too high as a percentage of the total amount when it is a small, cheap part.

If you continue to ship without tracking, you'll continue to have these problems.
With sure, yes. But finally there are not so many bad cases as this has been. In most cases you can get to know if you should refund or send new items during 3 days. In this case, the buyer was not in the country and we clearly agreed what to do. On the other hand we where afraid that this will happen again. But missing tracking codes is not the only problem. We have had other cases too, where it seemed that BOT has made a decision. For example case where appeal was handled in less than 10 minutes when they reserve 48 hours for it.

You don't have to refund as soon as they file and INR, but refund in the time Ebay gives you, before they step in and refund.
It can be like that but as we said, ebay gives chance to act in different way, at least in their advices.
As you know, the internet is full of all kinds of stories and advice on how and what to do in different cases.

We got lost in the Internet and crushed with pages which are for developers: https://developer.ebay.com/api-docs/user-guides/static/post-order-user-guide/post-order-resolutions....

It is said there for example:

When an item doesn't arrive within the estimated delivery date, the Buyer can create an Item Not Received (INR) inquiry. At that point, the Buyer has the option of still requesting to receive the item, or they can seek a refund. If the seller does not properly address the INR inquiry, or is not willing to issue a refund if sought by the buyer, the Buyer has the option of escalating the INR inquiry into an INR case.

Similarly, if a Buyer creates a Return request that the seller does not adequately address, or maybe declines the return request even if the return reason is SNAD-related (significantly not as described), the Buyer has the option of escalating that Return request into a Return case. ….. Whatever the case may be, if the Buyer and seller are unable to resolve the issue, the Buyer or seller can escalate the Return request into a Return case.
The eBay customer support team will review all INR and Return cases. However, even after an INR or Return case is created, it is still possible for the Buyer and seller to work it out without eBay customer support making a final decision on the case, either in favor of the Buyer or the seller. The Post-Order API Case Management interfaces can be used to programmatically manage, and possibly resolve, a case without a final decision being made by eBay customer support. Here, a seller will receive a defect only if eBay has to ultimately make a decision on that case, and eBay rules in favor of the buyer.
The eBay Money Back Guarantee program protects a Buyer when a seller does not send an item on time and is not willing to issue a refund after the estimated delivery date has passed, or when the Buyer receives an item that doesn't match the listing description and the seller is not willing to work with them by sending them a replacement item or issuing a refund. …..

We don't know anything about that Developers Program itself, but we guess that the same principles have to work there as well.

So even there is a story how Buyer and seller can agree quite freely what to do.

And still it is totally open why ebay appealed the case on behalf of us. Why they don't want to send a copy of the appeal to us? There is something badly wrong.

[rati-store]

Referring to previous posts, it would be interesting to hear your views on ebay's actions in this case. For some reason, we have the impression that some of the commenters focus more on mistakes made by the seller, which do not exist if you follow all the rules and instructions of ebay. To be clear, we don't think it's a mistake to send a letter without a tracking code, although it doesn't seem very wise either. We also don't feel we did anything wrong by waiting for the buyer's response for more than 3 days, because ebay also allows it if the buyer and seller clearly work together to resolve the issue.

Our claim about ebay being activated without a request can be considered correct. Our claim about the final decision made by ebay without our appeal, no one can dispute, it is 100% certain.

At some point you said that we have gone through all the CSs and the manager is also aware of it. Someone claiming to be the manager actually sent us a message. I don't think there's anything wrong with it if we share its content now:

Thank you for contacting eBay Customer Service. My name is …...., Manager here. I can see why you would want to reach out to us about this case. Rest assured I will make sure this is handled promptly.

I can see your account is registered on the US site. I apologize for how you felt with eBay Italy customer service. We are trying to improve daily. We will make sure we provide the best experience on our site.

May you please reply back to this email with your actual concern? How do you want us to help you?

I assure you we will provide the best resolution possible in that case.

We appreciate the opportunity to assist you today. I appreciate you taking the time to contact us today, thank you for your continued business. Have a wonderful day.

Please tell us if we are in somehow stupid, when we got such a feeling from that message, that ebay wants to help us. "Rest assured I will make sure this is handled promptly." "I assure you we will provide the best resolution possible in that case."

Typical **bleep** from ebay.  Only beautiful words and promises, nothing else.

We told that first we would like to see the appeal which they claimed that we have done on 29th November and after that we are interested to go through the whole story detail by detail.

We sent after our first message 2 reminders.

Absolutely nothing, no answers, no comments. Do you really think that ebay has ”handled promptly” and ”provide best resolution possible in that case”?

No wonder that we can't get answers from workers if even the manager is hiding in the bushes. Or how you would like to describe such behaviour.

Our 3 last defects are manufactured by ebay. That is fact, but even God can't help after members of CS have got something in their heads.
​

[rati-store]

We have most obviously misunderstood something again. After a long time, we sent a message to ebay again and briefly asked where the appeal is on 29th November, and after two days our global seller performance went from below to Top Rated and we thought it was because our appeal went through. Now, however, the sales limits have not changed and when we have asked about them, we do not get answers. We also haven't received answers about what to do about the listings removed by ebay, about 2000, when they reach 90 days old, they are removed. So the damage is huge and all because ebay doesn't follow its own rules and doesn't want to admit its mistakes. If this was the first time, but now we get these defects, for reasons that have nothing to do with platform security. Is it safe for the bot to decide what happens and for the CS to refuse to correct errors?
Now tell me in very simple words why eBay won't deliver us a copy appeal 29th November or remove the defect. You have read our message and you know that we have acted completely in accordance with eBay's instructions. Isn't it a bit unfair to remove 2000 listings just because the seller has agreed with the buyer what to do and trusted that CS will take into account everything that happened, including the agreement between the buyer and the seller. Do you really think that we just should accept that we loose huge work al thought we have not made anything wrong?