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sellers be aware my opinion & experience of not being protected even with proof!

this has been a month long battle! i have over 1300 positive feedbacks,& have been a member since 1996. sold a lot of jewelry w sterling silver in it. pictured the sterling rings on there own so you could see what was sterling & called other sterling items out involved in the lot. the buyer wanted to return saying "no sterling if so its cheap china plated & i didnt even look at the rest" This was not the true case! i sell all sales as final (that's how its done in an auction house) & please ask questions before bidding. So eBay was going to refund & i said no way. i had most the jewelry at one time listed individual, showing each pc & the silver marks, i also had the item #s so ebay could see for them selves.( oddly enough i cant find any of those emails the buyer & i wrote back & forth through this bogus refund ordeal. where did they go ebay?) some days i waited up to 9hrs for a call from ebay. had in this months time talked to at least 8 staffers, all telling me something different which is very frustrating reexplaining the whole ordeal & at this point my anxiety was though the roof! i didn't want to refund because i don't lie in my listing to make a sale ,so to be accused of that was really what made me mad. I have bought fake silver on eBay & have contacted them about all the fake silver they are letting people sell. the answer to me was if it happens, i can return it & get my $ back. that's Not what i want to hear when I've collected silver for over 30ys. i know what I'm looking at & it makes me honestly mad that  a lot of ppl are buying what they think is silver & its fake stuff . eBay & an other popular auction site  claim ignorance when i try to point out  the fake stuff they are letting be sold, they are Not pulling off there sites when reported . So I'm an honest sell being accused of something i despise!  I'm an Ohio licensed auctioneer &  deal mostly in silver for over 30yrs. being an auctioneer you have rules to follow or you can loss your license, like selling fake stuff. long story short even with every item# individual pics of the marking more than enough proof ,that it was in fact silver. they sent her a return label, got my stuff back in a taped up paper bag, broke & missing pcs &she got her $ and I got a sorry but to bad letter from ebay!!as follows, i dont know how they get away w/ this.?

Message 1 of 22
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Re: sellers be aware my opinion & experience of not being protected even with proof!

@dewbarwonderland I'm sorry you are so upset but you are incorrect in how eBay works. This is not an auction house, it is an online platform. This platform offers a MBG to all buyers. Your own no returns policy is superseded by eBay’s return policy in the TOS. Unless this is a buyer’s remorse type of return you had to refund. Once the buyer selects INAD you will have to pay for the return shipping or eBay will deduct it from your account, regardless of what you stated in your own listing. It happens; it's a part on selling online and no it's not personal. 

 

You are trying to compare being a licensed auctioneer with an online platform, but that's apples to oranges. Returns are handled automatically by bots, there is no one person reviewing each case. There are far too many sales every single hour for that to be possible. If you cannot understand that then you will only encounter more of these types of situations moving forward.

 

Perhaps next time you can set aside your personal feelings and try to work with the buyer in doing your best to accommodate them. The important part was the retrieval of your items from one bad buyer. You got them back and now you can resell them and make up some of the money you lost. Best of luck to you....

Message 2 of 22
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Re: sellers be aware my opinion & experience of not being protected even with proof!

i feel for you man.  freebay  is all about the buyer. the unscrupulous buyers know how to play the freebay system to get free stuff from you. why should freebay care, its not their merchandise.  not a seller on this site thats not gonna get taken if they sell long enough. the part i dont like is when you can prove without a doubt that you are being scammed but  freebay wont have your 6. they want the buyer to be happy with your merchandise at your expense.

Message 3 of 22
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Re: sellers be aware my opinion & experience of not being protected even with proof!

i really appreciate your insight & i realize this isn't an auction house. my point on that was, i have to follow laws like Not selling fake stuff or my licenses is pulled & I'm done, i have to carry bonds& insurance incase that happens. eBay has no liability  & everyone's an auctioneer because its Ebay. i have a picture of there own ad saying "NO fake No fraud No doubt" yet if you report the actual fake stuff being sold on here, they don't care they let it sell sell sell.so its unbelievable  to me when I'm selling real stuff (sending them proof of that,) the buyers reason was " Not as described " & it defiantly was! so to me it is buyers remorse, because i have more than proven my case of why i wasn't refunding the buyer. the buy basically called me a liar & im not! so yes my personal feeling were bent right off the get go. if the buyer said" hey I'm in a bad spot i shouldn't have bought it , can i please have a refund" it would have been no problem. I've done it for 2 buyers in past couple years. And if i would have got ALL my items back & not broke packed in just a paper bag & i would resale it wouldn't be wasting my time mad on here lol. but thats not the case..so basically if i had no heart, i could buy a bunch of your items say couple hundred $s worth, say not as described, keep what i want , not worry about you getting the rest of it back in good condition & you would be ok with that? ugh.. thank you 

 

Message 4 of 22
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Re: sellers be aware my opinion & experience of not being protected even with proof!

 i dont know how they get away w/ this.?

 

@dewbarwonderland 

 

The "get away with it" because they can.  When you sign up to use this place, you agree to let eBay decide in dispute situations.  Essentially, you agree to become a victim of buyer fraud.  

The dispute process here is basically automated.  The results are just about pre-determined as soon as a buyer hits the "not as described"  button.  It doesn't have to be the truth but the process is set in motion. 

The buyer does not have to provide any substantiation for their claim, and nobody cares about your reputation or any documentation you may have.  As soon as the 'not as described' button is chosen, your description and photos mean nothing.  Communications will not be considered, and if you should reach any humans, they are all going to do or tell you the same story.  

 

Though buyers are told they are supposed to return the item in the same condition,  they still get their refund (from your proceeds) if they don't.  It is called a "faulty return".  There is no seller protection for buyers that claim "item not as described" or "faulty returns". 

They get away with it because sellers are willing to put up with it, and continue to sell here.  It is business, and if you still are making money, you alone can judge your risk tolerance.  

Believe me, I know how this feels, and it is not good.  For over 20 years of selling I had no complaints regarding my products or service.   As this "returns" program matured, I started getting phony SNAD claims  it seemed like every other week.  Yes, it feels like your are immediately accused of being a liar and 
thief, and there is no one who will believe otherwise, especially when the item you get back is not what you sent.  

I decided I didn't want to play that game anymore.  I didn't need an abusive partner.   This was submitted by ebay in response to a complaint  on Aug. 11, 2014, but it is still the prevailing attitude today: 


"We do not currently cover faulty returns and consider them a cost of doing business. When you sell on eBay, we consider you a business. One of our goals is to allow our sellers, whether they're large or small, to function as a business. As well as the potential for profit, all business models will have some sort of loss built in; it's important when selling on eBay that you consider this as a possibility."

There was a time that sellers did have some consideration in these sorts of disputes. I feel that took too many resources, so they just quit doing it.  "Part of doing business on the net this site". 

The internet is a big place now.   Embrace change, don't fear it. 

Message 5 of 22
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Re: sellers be aware my opinion & experience of not being protected even with proof!


@dewbarwonderland wrote:

i really appreciate your insight & i realize this isn't an auction house. my point on that was, i have to follow laws like Not selling fake stuff or my licenses is pulled & I'm done, i have to carry bonds& insurance incase that happens. eBay has no liability  & everyone's an auctioneer because its Ebay. i have a picture of there own ad saying "NO fake No fraud No doubt" yet if you report the actual fake stuff being sold on here, they don't care they let it sell sell sell.so its unbelievable  to me when I'm selling real stuff (sending them proof of that,) the buyers reason was " Not as described " & it defiantly was! so to me it is buyers remorse, because i have more than proven my case of why i wasn't refunding the buyer. the buy basically called me a liar & im not! so yes my personal feeling were bent right off the get go. if the buyer said" hey I'm in a bad spot i shouldn't have bought it , can i please have a refund" it would have been no problem. I've done it for 2 buyers in past couple years. And if i would have got ALL my items back & not broke packed in just a paper bag & i would resale it wouldn't be wasting my time mad on here lol. but thats not the case..so basically if i had no heart, i could buy a bunch of your items say couple hundred $s worth, say not as described, keep what i want , not worry about you getting the rest of it back in good condition & you would be ok with that? ugh.. thank you 

 


No I wouldn't be okay with the scenario you presented but I wouldn't ever list hundreds of dollars worth of items on a platform that sells to perfect strangers across the country and then claim to be surprised when it went downhill. That's my point. I get your frustration and I understand your feelings, but you wrote things that simply aren't correct and that was my point in replying to you. Yes you did compare eBay to an auction house in your original post, go back and read it. 

 

I looked at some of your listings and your jewelry is fabulous looking. I saw things that I would personally purchase from you.  Your photos look great, your items look great. You have good FB so I wouldn't hesitate to purchase from you. However when you choose to list them on a platform such as this, yes of course there are unscrupulous people out there just waiting for an opportunity to strike. Unfortunately they found you this time, it happens. That's what I'm saying.

 

I'm not in agreement with that buyer, but the situation isn't exactly how you described it either. Try to find ways to help yourself out if you choose to continue to sell on here. Yes in a perfect world buyers would simply explain if they changed their mind, but we don't live like that. Perhaps if you hadn't fought the return so much the buyer may have taken more care in returning your items. At a minimum you got your jewelry back. How many cases do we read where the buyer ships back another item or an empty box? Try to look at this from another perspective. Dust yourself off and get back up to sell once again. You are obviously a very professional seller, you can move on from this. Best of luck to you....

Message 6 of 22
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Re: sellers be aware my opinion & experience of not being protected even with proof!

very true! i was first told after i sent proof that the buyer wouldn't be refunded. then a few days later when i waited 9hrs for a call from ebay, i was told, sorry they shouldn't have told you that. its been a yoyo ride. after this i will NEVER Sell on eBay again. if it was a $50 item i would of ate it & kept my mouth shut. but it wasn't & there were missing & broke pcs packed in nothing but a brown  bag no packing nothing & ebay says we have no way of knowing🙄 i have the dang bag w/ the label they sent her taped on it. i just cant move pass the insanity. if feel like its now my mission to warn ppl that by selling with these standards, they really could lose a lot in my opinion & experience. 

 

Message 7 of 22
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Re: sellers be aware my opinion & experience of not being protected even with proof!

i understand & i get your point of view & appreciate you taking the time to write .thank you 

Message 8 of 22
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Re: sellers be aware my opinion & experience of not being protected even with proof!

i just cant move pass the insanity

 

@dewbarwonderland 

You will move past it.  I sometimes compare it to living in a Kafka novel.  Call this one the Kafka Mini Series Season 23.  It is not fair, it is not logical, it is not ethical or moral.   It is what it is.  Your description of what happened it you has been reported here over and over for a very long time.  Focus on what you CAN control. 

Just about anything can be had for free at the seller's expense by a fraudulent claim on this platform.  The policies allow it, and so long as ebay is not on the losing end, it will be business as usual.  Not all sales end badly.  Not all selling sites have the "one click, seller becomes a liar" return program.  Most times you win with a great sale, but sometimes you don't.  Seller roulette is not for sissies. Never post anything for sale here that you cannot afford to lose. 

Take care of yourself.  When you have calmed down, there are still some things you can do.  They won't necessarily get your money back, but there is a chance it will help the next victim. 

Message 9 of 22
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Re: sellers be aware my opinion & experience of not being protected even with proof!

thank you i appreciate  you all. i think my blood pressure is coming down a bit😁 

Message 10 of 22
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Re: sellers be aware my opinion & experience of not being protected even with proof!

 Of course it is infuriating to be called the very thing you despise, and I am very sorry this happened to you. They attacked your honor and it upset you, understandably. But for some buyers, this is a game. You have to learn to play it better than they do.

 

This sounds like your first bad experience with a case opened against you. So the odds have been in your favor for a long time. In the decade since i've been selling here, I have never had a bad buyer. My point is these dishonest people are in the minority. Still, every seller dealing in fine metals or other expensive items needs to evaluate their risk in selling such and make allowances for shrinkage, just like with a brick and mortar. Fraud is a part of the landscape and must be planned for.

 

Anyone can tell by your listings and feedback that you are a stellar seller. But from eBay's point of view, it is impossible to prove what was sent to a buyer. Even with pictures showing the proper marks on jewelry does not prove that was what was sent , nor does the mark ensure the item is genuine as marks are faked, too. (This happened to me. I was defrauded by a seller selling fake sterling silver, and it was all marked properly. The fraudsters have this down to a science.) So eBay is going to side with the buyer regardless of the circumstances. It is well known that eBay looks out for the buyer's interest, first and foremost. Sellers must protect themselves. 

 

 When it comes to a Not As Described case, it doesn't matter what the buyer says, 95% of the time they will get a refund regardless of the evidence. When that happens, it is in your better interests to not fight the return. The penalties that eBay levels against a seller who denies a SNAD return can be substantial, including a defect on your account and having to pay the Final Value fees on the item in question. So if this ever happens again, cut your losses and refund, knowing the time to fight is after the case is closed.

 

All is not lost. You have 30 days to appeal eBay's ruling. That is where the ship can be righted. If the appeal is carefully prepared, you may have a shot at reversing the decision. Depending on what the buyer did, you may want to bring charges against them with the authorities, including the Postal Inspectors. If you do this, make sure you get case numbers. Also make a report to the Internet Crimes Complaint Center at ic3.gov. Include all the case numbers in the appeal to show you are earnest in your position. Below is a link to the appeals policy with more details. Good luck in your efforts.

 

https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/managing-returns-refunds/appeal-ebays-decision-return-missing-item...

Message 11 of 22
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Re: sellers be aware my opinion & experience of not being protected even with proof!

@dewbarwonderland 

    It's ok just breathe, lamber9347 gave some good level headed advice here as always. I get it and I don't blame you for getting angry over this jewelry lot esp with sterling involved. Buyer was a crook/ deadbeat. I often sell jewelry lots myself but fortunately I've had the best buyers ever. I was going to ask if you show pictures close up at the markings like 925 or Sterling in your pieces and you pointed out you do. At this point..it is what it is..the crooks, gypsy's tramps and thieves are running wild online and you either have to be aware or not sell...I am choosing not to sell right now online. Sorry this happened.

Message 12 of 22
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Re: sellers be aware my opinion & experience of not being protected even with proof!

A picture of a silver mark is not proof of anything other than the fact that you possess a picture of a silver mark. 

 

If eBay found in favor of sellers based on a picture, then unscrupulous sellers with a picture of a Rolex or a gold coin or an iPhone or an XBox would have driven every buyer off eBay years ago. 

 

Message 13 of 22
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Re: sellers be aware my opinion & experience of not being protected even with proof!

thank you. i honestly couldn't comprehend this could happen. i was  lead to believe by ebay staff that if i showed proof the refund wouldn't be given. i was put on a merry go round & told something different from each ebay staff, then id get passed around wait hrs for a call. then i was told when i received the item i could appeal it & the refund wouldn't be issued, so i said ok appeal it. they sent me a sorry to say letter  so i waited for them to call again today. so i was basically handed a bunch of **bleep** even though i did what they said. i realize after reading everyone's advise that i have had myself so stressed out to the point ive thought my head was going to explode at times. all my energy has been focused on this,i just cant shake it off. but it seems to be the norm which is a shame. and i know one person isn't going to make a deafferents in a multi billion dollar company  but i feel like its my life's goal now lol. i will never deal with them again😕. thank you all hope you have a great weekend 

Message 14 of 22
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Re: sellers be aware my opinion & experience of not being protected even with proof!

Great, now I crave an orange.  🙂

Message 15 of 22
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