Why is eBay not deregistering users that commit fraud (Russian return shipping scam)?

[tsengf]

A buyer purchased a lot of two new high-end electronic items from me to be shipped to "701 Cornell Dr. Unit F9 - P646475 Wilmington DE 19801." I did not know the history of this troubled address so I shipped the item.

A few days later, the buyer claimed that the item was damaged. To enable further discussions, I asked the buyer to provide a photo of the damage and also to reach out to me to discuss next steps. Rather than responding to me, the buyer opened a case to return the item. I sent the buyer a FedEx shipping label containing 1) the Return and To addresses, and 2) the tracking number. I signed up for delivery notifications for the tracking number. A couple days later, FedEx texted me that the item incurred a delivery exception because no one was available to receive it. This was strange because I was present at the destination address at the time of delivery.

Given the strangeness of the situation and the value of the item, I requested FedEx to hold it at their ship center. A nice gentleman named Ely from FedEx called me that he has the item ready for me to pick up at the ship center. Ely advised me that something else was wrong: the To and From addresses were not the same as what I had provided even though it was the same tracking number. The only other time he has seen this was on a fraudulent shipment.

I went to the ship center to pick up the item and video recorded the transaction with Ely. Ely recited the tracking number and opened the package. Inside was a piece of cardboard. The video link is here. https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMNWJEHzMPIG8lVPB53TVmAIPUuFQXJF-rS993INOlwH7ZbvyPYvMH1qdFj8b9L...

The buyer used the fact that the item was delivered to claim a full refund even though he shipped back a piece of cardboard. After providing eBay with my evidence, eBay withdrew money from my account to cover for the return. I had to go through hoops to claim back the money from eBay.

I reported the buyer's actions through eBay's channel for reporting buyers that return deceptive items at least 3 times. I had called and spoke to eBay customer service more than 5 times regarding the actions of the buyer. Unfortunately, a separate back office handles reviews of buyers and I do not have direct access to that office. It's been 4 weeks since the fraudulent act by the buyer, and I am told that eBay has simply given the buyer a "warning".

All the information that I have provided here, I had provided to eBay. I do not understand why eBay has not deregistered the buyer or attempted to reclaim the money back from the buyer. The system is broken.

As a seller, I do not want to go through this experience again. As a buyer, eBay is encouraging this type of fraudulent behavior because in an extreme case as this, the buyer gets a warning.

[Anonymous]

When it comes to online marketplaces, Ebay is absolutely the most incompitent, which is why every scam artist in the world prefers it's fraud ridden marketplace.

A few examples:

• 10 years ago a dealer was selling cars and hiding damage, it took over 2 years and 20 transactions before ebay suspended him, despite numerous negative feedback.
• The same scam you're talking about, a seller was selling high value electronics but sending people a piece of carboard with a tracking number, so far over 20 negative feedbacks and complaints, but the seller is still selling
• A buyer can commit return fraud 100 times in a row and ebay will not suspend the account.

When talking about ebay and catching fraud, always assume incompetence first as ebay is the global leader in that field. 

[downunder-61]

Contact eBay on facebook

https://www.facebook.com/eBayForBusiness 

Send a private message.  Include your user ID, email address, phone number, and a brief message. 

[dbfolks166mt]

     Apologize in advance for the long winded response.

     It has always been eBay's policy to favor the buyers in virtually all situations. The MBG is proof of that favoritism. You are not the first person to be scammed and will not be the last. High demand electronics are a favorite target of scammers especially for foreign buyers. A lot of sellers, myself included, will not list electronics on eBay there are better options to move that type of merchandise with minimal risk. 

     It's sad to say that eBay will do little to protect the sellers from the scammers since they are still earning revenue from the transactions about the only thing a seller can do is take precautions to protect themselves. Over the years from some hard earned lessons I have tried to insulate myself as much as possible from the scams but nothing is 100% full proof. While I sell internationally there are a lot of countries I will not sell or ship to nor do I purchase from. Russia and China are at the top of that list. For those countries that I do sell to I use the eBay GSP/GSC to ship.

     I do several things when I make a sale and the buyer has paid. I take a look at the buyers account profile and see what country they are in, how long the account has been active and if they have feedback. The feedback is a minor thing since all a buyer can get is positive feedback. I Google the shipping address to see if it is a residence, PO Box, freight forwarder, etc. While there are some foreign buyers that legitimately use freight forwarders it is a scammers way of getting around sellers who block sales to certain foreign countries. If the buyer is using a freight forwarder and is in a country that I do not sell to I weight the risk of a potential scam against the cost of the item and decide whether or not to cancel the sale based on a problem with the buyers address. I cancel probably about 99% of sales where the buyer is using a freight forwarder. Even more deceptive are the foreign buyers that have setup a US account but are using a freight forwarder. Huge red flag. 

     I still find eBay to be a viable platform to move some merchandise but I have diversified across multiple forums and sites to both reduce my risk and my cost of doing business. Until the scamming has a major impact on eBay's bottom line and their shareholders feel the impact I expect little to change with eBay. 

[ittybitnot]

 I had to go through hoops to claim back the money from eBay.

@tsengf 

At least you were fortunate enough to get proper assistance even if it took a while.  Many eBay sellers are not so lucky.  Nobody knows how many times one ID can pull off this scam before eBay removes them.  Typically, if they start costing eBay money they may get the boot.  If a hijacked account was used, perhaps control of same was returned to the original owner.  

[vintagecraze50]

Bingo! You had an official Fed Ex person confirm what was sent back to you in real time. 

[vintagecraze50]

Bingo! You had proof that they used the wrong address in te scam.

[isaiah53-57]

In my humble opinion, the answer to your wonderment is simply short term monetary gain. I would think this type of buyer purchases a lot of items and it keeps the numbers looking good for the board, for investors and for the bottom line over the short term. I believe that the revenues they tend to retain from situations such as this overwhelm long term viability trends.  Its likely simply a matter of the bean counters showing short term revenue trends that are more appealing than long term trends.

My own experience that  tends to corroborate this thinking goes as such: A year ago, I had a buyer fraudulantly return an Action Figures Lot saying the items were damaged in the mail, which I knew was a scam from the start - It was a fairly large lot and what I eventually received back had all the most valuable figures missing and many replaced with counterfeits. I reported the buyer and got in touch with MANY sellers who had done business with the buyer asking them if they had had similar experiences and recommended that they file reports if they had. I received contacts back from many sellers saying they had gone through the same experience and had also filed reports or were going to file...

Fast forward a year and the buyer is still in operation...Their feedback is riddled with false postives saying things like, "Beware of", "Stay Away From", "Scammers", "Theives", etc etc...

Surely, if a company or business was legitimately cracking down on fraud,  there is no way a buyer who operates in this fashion would still be a registered member.

I personally got my money back as I was relentless in pursuit of satisfaction, filing police reports, fraud reports, etc and would not let the matter die for the sake of principal. I would guess that I am in that rare 20 percent(approximate) and most sellers simply move on in frustration and never receive the satisfaction they deserve - But the company still gets their fees in, I would guess, 75 to 80 percent of these situations...

[katzrul15]

And even if you can get the one account removed, NARU'D/shut down, they just open a new account, start over.

[bctk5292]

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@tsengf wrote:

A buyer purchased a lot of two new high-end electronic items from me to be shipped to "[...] Wilmington DE 19801." I did not know the history of this troubled address so I shipped the item.

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Before shipping, if you had asked the buyer: Are you here in Delaware, or are you having this reshipped?

Then later @tsengf if eBay can see "reshipped" in their reply at eBay Messages, you would have contacted eBay to disqualify any future return request and close the case without a refund.

Just that address alone won't do; eBay must read that the item was reshipped. An honest buyer would reply if it's being reshipped; otherwise, you would need to reconsider shipping the item.

[duffy4444]

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@dbfolks166mt wrote:

     I do several things when I make a sale and the buyer has paid. I take a look at the buyers account profile and see what country they are in, how long the account has been active and if they have feedback. The feedback is a minor thing since all a buyer can get is positive feedback. I Google the shipping address to see if it is a residence, PO Box, freight forwarder, etc. While there are some foreign buyers that legitimately use freight forwarders it is a scammers way of getting around sellers who block sales to certain foreign countries. If the buyer is using a freight forwarder and is in a country that I do not sell to I weight the risk of a potential scam against the cost of the item and decide whether or not to cancel the sale based on a problem with the buyers address. I cancel probably about 99% of sales where the buyer is using a freight forwarder. Even more deceptive are the foreign buyers that have setup a US account but are using a freight forwarder. Huge red flag.

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     Right on! Thanks, dbfolks166mt... This is the bottom line of how to look at freight forwarder situations and how to assess the likelihood of a possible scam.

   Just this last week, I had a jewelry sale to an address in Oregon from a buyer with an Asian name. I clicked on the buyer's feedback number and sure enough, he is based in China and was using a freight forwarder in Oregon. I immediately cancelled the sale using problem with buyer's address, as I've already told eBay in my shipping address exclusions list of all the countries I don't ship to, including Russia and China. Then I added the buyer to my BBL, and eBay automatically relisted the item for me.

   The next day I get a message from that buyer in China saying he really wanted the jewelry item, and he made a mistake and would use another US address. I ignored him.

   The following day I get a sale for the same item from a different "buyer" with an Asian name. I clicked on that buyer's FB number, and it showed that buyer is based in the US!... But the shipping address was the exact same FF in Oregon. I cancelled that order using out of stock, so that eBay would not automatically relist it. Then that buyer went onto my BBL as well.

   I decided to not relist the item for 60 days, hoping this persistent back-door stunt to ship to a country that is already on my eBay shipping exclusions list would go away. So far it has. I'll relist the jewelry in November.

   I also weigh the risk to a FF along the lines of the value of the item, and will sometimes take that risk on an item of lower value.

   But eBay is not currently serious about revamping Seller Protections to courageously face and curb the increasing incidence of scams, both domestic and international. These hurt even eBay's bottom line when sellers are cancelling their higher-value listings and even quitting and going to other sites.

   Ebay could take simple, common sense steps like setting up a system of optional insurance against scams that are no-brainers when common sense is used. I'm sure a lot of sellers here, including myself, would jump at the chance to pay a small fee for such insurance, and resume listing higher-value items. eBay would also benefit by a huge jump in legitimate revenue from the listing of such sales... DUH!

   Think about it...

Cheers, Duffy 

[tsengf]

There are two parts to this incident. My question was focusing on the second.

1. The dispute process between the buyer and the seller

2. The process to report the buyer to eBay

For 1, I understand that eBay favors buyers because they provide the money to the eBay machine. I also understand the processes and methods need to be in place in order for both the protection of the buyer and seller, although I don't agree with some of the procedures. Prior to eBay ruling in favor of the buyer, I had provided sufficient photo and video evidence to eBay. Even with this information, eBay continued to refund money to the buyer without recognizing that the return contained a piece of cardboard and the ship to address was not correct.

For 2, even after many attempts to call eBay to report the buyer, all that has resulted is a slap on the hand for the buyer. Customer service told me they issued a warning to the buyer. In this case, the purchase price was >$800 and to me, this should be a big deal for eBay to not to lose this money. It is not sustainable (perhaps this is why fees continue to go up for sellers, digressing). Again, the video evidence is clear but my best guess is that no one from eBay is looking at it.

My thoughts on this is that eBay is encouraging this type of behavior on their platform. In the cases such as mine where there is sufficient evidence, it seems like a no brainer to make the right decision.

[duffy4444]

   I am in agreement with you and share your frustration, especially when real evidentiary proof, that would easily stand up in a court of law, is available to eBay. It only goes to show how shallow and milk-toast eBay's response is to scammers (just a warning... really?).

   It also makes me wonder if eBay and Amazon are in competition to show buyers just how much they favor them over sellers, as I just last week went thru a similar thing on Amazon to what you're currently experiencing. I lost a $65 item plus a forced refund there with no questions asked or common sense used. At >$800, I'm sure yours is even more heartbreaking and angering,

   Ebay doesn't care about sufficient proof and photo & video evidence. It appears that they just want to wash their hands and force the scammed seller to chalk it up to a "cost of doing business". In this way you are right that it only encourages this type of scam buyer behavior and is put totally on the back of the seller with their hands already tied. Scammers are very smart and know this.

   Very discouraging, and the only way I can see how to deal with it as a seller is to Never, Ever  sell and ship higher-value items here, until eBay gets their act together and takes action. Instead I use Craigslist, where shipping scams, including false cc chargeback claims, are removed from the equation by using local pickup and cash. That's what I do with my higher-value and bulky items, and I am very successful. Taking a little longer? Yes. But until I have the cash in hand and give the buyer a handshake and then he happily leaves with his treasure, I am in control of the entire process as I should be. No double loss, and only a gain...

Cheers, Duffy

[tsengf]

Yeah, apparently the video of the FedEx representative reading the return tracking number and opening the package is still not sufficient for eBay to take the right action. I don't really understand what type of proof is needed by the back office that's handling these cases.

[tsengf]

I understand that a user can open accounts under multiple IDs. In my case, eBay ended up forfeiting >$800 on the claim. This to me is a costly transaction for eBay.

The problem I have with this transaction is not so much the scam itself but the fact that I provided video evidence of the crime, and eBay still refuses to take the right action. Customer service told me they issued a warning to the buyer. The punishment does not fit the crime. My best guess is that eBay did not look at the photos or video that I provided.