eBay

autopiacarcare · ‎02-18-2019

We have been targeted by a malicious buyer who has purchased 3 times from 3 different guest account IDs.

Order # 1 - Opened damaged/not as described case claiming the cap of the bottle was cracked in shipping and product had leaked out. We processed full refund to close the case.

Order # 2 - Return was filed as "Doesn't match description or photos" with the comment " Nothings came whats going on." - Order was delayed by a day due to weather and was delivered the day after return was opened. We sent buyer multiple messages with tracking updates, but did not get a response. So, we approved the return on the last day possible to avoid getting a defect.

This return had a message on February 15th that said since the buyer had not provided tracking, we could call and have eBay close the case in our favor, which I did. I even received an email from eBay stating the case had been decided in the seller's favor, closed without a refund to the buyer, and that it would not affect our seller performance. However, after the case was closed, the buy provided a tracking number the next day and eBay reversed the decision, refunded the buyer, and is now showing this as an "unresolved" strike on our seller metrics.

Order # 3 - This return request came in just as we were putting two and two together and realizing this buyer was targeting us. Also filed as "not as described" saying he received the wrong brush. Buyer will not respond to messages asking for pictures or more details (I know he's not required to provide pictures). I reported all 3 IDs online and also called Trust and Safety. Trust and Safety advised me not to authorize this return. They said that in 3 days if I do nothing, it will escalate to eBay and they will close in our favor because of the fraudulent buyer activity.

However, when I called today to appeal the mark on our metrics for Order # 2, not only was I told they can't remove that defect because the buyer provided tracking, but I was also told that everything Trust and Safety said was wrong and that I do have to authorize the return for Order # 3. So now eBay is going to charge us $10.84 for a shipping label for a $10.99 product and all they can say is to call when we get it back to appeal that case and "maybe" get the return shipping refunded.

It is incredibly frustrating to get so much bad information when calling CS and that there is apparently no hope for getting actual help when we are being so obviously targeted by fraudulent return requests.

autopiacarcare · ‎02-20-2019

I believe in giving credit where it is due, so I do have to give kudos to the CS rep I just spoke to. I explained the situation, gave her the previous case number and after a short time on hold for her to investigate she came back and said she would immediately grant the appeal, reverse the case in our favor, refund our money and remove the "unresolved" defect for this case as well.

That being said, for as friendly and helpful as she was with that specific case, as soon as I brought up the issue of the service metrics, I hit a wall. At that point she flipped to just reading the script with the same lines many sellers have heard about all the reasons why they have implemented this policy and that because we are measured against our peers, any false NADs will average out, etc.

I pushed back and told her that since eBay has found that these cases were clearly fraudulent and malicious, they should not be counted on our metrics or held against us in any way. She said she agreed with me but unfortunately there is no way in their system to remove them and then she said "for now let's just focus on getting this case reversed" and proceeded to steer the conversation back to just that specific case and away from the Service Metrics issue.

@Anonymous Is this really eBay's position on the Service Metrics in a situation like this or should I be calling back to speak to a supervisor to have this escalated?

autopiacarcare · ‎02-20-2019

Also important to note on order # 3 - the original tracking from us to the buyer shows delivered in CA on 2/14. The tracking they provided for the return shows origin scan in GA on 2/12 and delivery in FL on 2/15.

Unless this person is a time traveler, it would be pretty impossible to ship a return from a location on the other side of the country 2 days before it was even delivered. I don't think it would be nearly that impossible for eBay's systems to flag information like that for a case to be reviewed by a human instead of just automatically closed in favor of the buyer.

Anonymous · ‎02-20-2019

@gramophone-georg wrote:

@Anonymous wrote:

@dtexley3 wrote:

@Anonymous Looks like this seller is getting conflicting information.

#2 is especially concerning, the buyer failed to supply return tracking, the return was closed in favor of the seller. The buyer uploaded tracking AFTER the return was closed, so the SELLER received and UNRESOLVED return strike? WHY?

Hi @dtexley3, it looks like the OP has been in communication with Customer Service and is having some of these issues addressed. Regardless, I'll make sure this is reviewed for appropriate action.

Good on ya Trinton. The following isn't directed at you personally, but I think it's something that needs to be said- and far more important... acted upon:

My concern is that, despite the reviews of these actions and the further coaching... things like this seem to keep on happening. It's over 11 years now it's been going like this... CSRs seemingly leading sellers by the hand into policy violations. Why are CSRs- so MANY CSRs- for so MANY years- telling sellers these things? Why does it never seem to improve?

In addition- the policies regarding these returns seem fairly cut and dried. How on earth was a CSR able to reopen it, find for the buyer, and then ding the OP with a defect on the second case in the first place? I mean, I'm glad for this OP that it was (hopefully) reversed, but how many others aren't? Why should it take multiple calls and hours of frustration to get eBay to (reluctantly) follow its own policies? The OP DID resolve the issue per eBay protocol- it's the BUYER who failed to act within the timeline outlined in policy- but the OP got the (now hopefully removed) defect? How could this even be possible?!

How is it that sellers are repeatedly told that these unfair defects "can't" be reversed, but for a buyer things can seemingly be easily reversed even in direct violation of eBay policy? Can CSRs reverse eBay bot actions, or can't they? Seems someone- actually MANY MANY people- are not telling eBay's paying customers the truth... so many, in fact, that it almost seems this is the training they've all received because it's so predictably consistent.

We're always told to "call Customer Service", yet we see all over these boards what that gets you... cases opened without asking for them- Incorrect advice leading to policy violations, followed up with a "so sad too bad"... just plain incorrect advice... and on and on.

Why can't this be fixed? I'm sure it would save a lot of CS payroll if everyone there could be on the same page regarding written eBay policy instead of sellers having to keep calling back.

I know there are some posters here who insist that a seller keeps calling back until they get the answer "they want to hear" but no, it's more like they have to keep calling and calling and calling till they get someone who is sort of possibly semi- aware of what policy might be regarding any given circumstance.

eBay is 24 years old but customer service still can't get policy straight- what's up with that?

Hi @gramophone-georg, in response to your questions about why it seems like there is no improvement, I can only confirm that our Customer Service teams are thoroughly trained and receive regular updates on policy changes or adjustments. Mistakes will happen, as is human nature, and we will work to resolve these when they come up. The publicly posted examples here on the boards and elsewhere are not an accurate depiction of the typical experience - while I won't share statistics, I can say that overall customer satisfaction has improved steadily over the years and our Customer Service teams are incredibly accurate at what they do. When mistakes are made, or are perceived to have been made, it is not uncommon for those impacted to share their experience publicly. It is far less common for members of our Community to share when everything went right. This is another part of human nature.

That being said, I can speak generally about some of your specific concerns:

There are situations where a case that is closed in the seller's favor may later be reversed, holding the seller accountable for a refund and recording a defect. This will only occur in very specific scenarios, but would be the appropriate action in some cases (example: the seller instructs the buyer to close their claim so a refund can be issued, but then does not provide a refund to the buyer).
Some defects can be appealed, while others cannot. The specific circumstances would determine what actions we can take. We are never able to reverse on time shipping metrics or the service metrics recorded, but do have options to prevent these from negatively impacting a seller's account if the situation warrants such protection. I think a lot of the confusion in these situations arises from the overuse of the word defect, when in actuality a different metric is being discussed. Also, when a seller reports that a defect cannot be removed, there may be a misunderstanding regarding removal being possible vs. in alignment with policy. Sometimes we will educate a seller that a defect cannot be removed, because it is not within our guidelines to remove it. In short, we sometimes can't remove a defect because it does not qualify for removal.
While The Community Team is happy to help by looking into a Customer Service conversation that may need correction and coaching, Customer Service is ultimately exists to address many of the account specific concerns raised here. If a mistake is made or if coaching is needed, our Customer Service teams are also equipped to have this reviewed and take action as needed. Though we certainly discover issues that need to be addressed from conversations escalated to our team, we also just as frequently (if not more so) discover correct information and correct action taken by our Customer Service teams.
To reiterate, accuracy is a top priority for us - we work hard to provide resources, training, and support to our Customer Service teams so they can in turn support our Community. Though we strive to minimize mistakes and poor experiences, this is an inevitability and we can't promise mistakes will never happen, only that eBay will work to resolve any issues brought to our attention.

Anonymous · ‎02-20-2019

@autopiacarcare wrote:

We have been targeted by a malicious buyer who has purchased 3 times from 3 different guest account IDs.

Order # 1 - Opened damaged/not as described case claiming the cap of the bottle was cracked in shipping and product had leaked out. We processed full refund to close the case.

Order # 2 - Return was filed as "Doesn't match description or photos" with the comment " Nothings came whats going on." - Order was delayed by a day due to weather and was delivered the day after return was opened. We sent buyer multiple messages with tracking updates, but did not get a response. So, we approved the return on the last day possible to avoid getting a defect.

This return had a message on February 15th that said since the buyer had not provided tracking, we could call and have eBay close the case in our favor, which I did. I even received an email from eBay stating the case had been decided in the seller's favor, closed without a refund to the buyer, and that it would not affect our seller performance. However, after the case was closed, the buy provided a tracking number the next day and eBay reversed the decision, refunded the buyer, and is now showing this as an "unresolved" strike on our seller metrics.

Order # 3 - This return request came in just as we were putting two and two together and realizing this buyer was targeting us. Also filed as "not as described" saying he received the wrong brush. Buyer will not respond to messages asking for pictures or more details (I know he's not required to provide pictures). I reported all 3 IDs online and also called Trust and Safety. Trust and Safety advised me not to authorize this return. They said that in 3 days if I do nothing, it will escalate to eBay and they will close in our favor because of the fraudulent buyer activity.

However, when I called today to appeal the mark on our metrics for Order # 2, not only was I told they can't remove that defect because the buyer provided tracking, but I was also told that everything Trust and Safety said was wrong and that I do have to authorize the return for Order # 3. So now eBay is going to charge us $10.84 for a shipping label for a $10.99 product and all they can say is to call when we get it back to appeal that case and "maybe" get the return shipping refunded.

It is incredibly frustrating to get so much bad information when calling CS and that there is apparently no hope for getting actual help when we are being so obviously targeted by fraudulent return requests.

Hi @autopiacarcare, I wanted to touch base on these situations for clarification as you have requested in our weekly chat.

No defect will be recorded for a return request where eBay was not asked to step in.
It looks like you have already discussed an appeal for this return with Customer Service and this has been processed. The appropriate protections will automatically be applied. You may see a defect recorded for this transaction on your reports until your next evaluation, but this would not count against you during that review.
This case also has been reviewed and resolved with no negative impact to your account. Again, a defect may display in your reports until the next evaluation but would not count against you, as it has been removed on our end.

These will count on your return metrics unless we identify abuse on the buyer's part, at which point protections will automatically be applied. We won't be able to reveal details about a possible connection amongst these buyers due to privacy concerns, but will investigate for appropriate action and protections.

autopiacarcare · ‎02-21-2019

@Anonymous I feel like we're talking in circles here.

You said: We are never able to reverse on time shipping metrics or the service metrics recorded, but do have options to prevent these from negatively impacting a seller's account if the situation warrants such protection.

So in the weekly chat I asked: Would the situation in that thread warrant that protection and if so, what exactly does that mean? If at some point in the future we are subject to additional fees due to service metrics, can that be appealed because of this situation and if so, how would that work? What assurance do we have that we will be protected?

Your response in the chat was: I will address the specific situation raised in the thread you reference within the thread itself. As for potential future consequences, those would be addressed at the time they arose. The assurance you have is the confirmation I have provided the protections are available when the situation warrants protections.

You didn't answer my specific question about if this situation would warrant that protection and instead just said you can assure me that the protections are available when the situation warrants. That does nothing to assure me of anything if I can't get a straight answer as to whether or not this situation warrants such protection.

You diverted the conversation back to this thread, and then redirected the conversation back to the "unresolved" defects, just like the CS rep I spoke to on the phone did. You only touched on the service metrics to say "These will count on your return metrics unless we identify abuse on the buyer's part, at which point protections will automatically be applied."

Again, you don't specifically state if this situation has been identified as abuse on the buyer's part. Since they are still showing in our return metrics, I can only assume that means they have not been identified as abuse by the buyer and if that is the case, I have to ask why not?

I had already acknowledged that the "unresolved" defects have been removed and the money was repaid to our PayPal account, and I am grateful to eBay for assisting with those issues. However, I think it is a bit disingenuous for you to say those cases have been resolved with no negative impact to our account when those returns are still showing as being counted in our service metrics.

This is such a clear cut case of malicious, fraudulent abuse from a buyer. Why is it impossible for eBay to say "We recognize that you were a victim of fraudulent activity, we stand behind our seller protections and we are going to proactively make sure this never has any negative impact on your account, including not having these fraudulent transactions ever counted in a metric that could cause you to pay additional fees." ?

tellmemama · ‎02-21-2019

@froggyjump wrote:
Call Ebay and have them insert all of these account names into your blocked buyer list.

And what's to keep them from buying using ANOTHER guest account?

Joe

Anonymous · ‎02-21-2019

@autopiacarcare wrote:

@Anonymous I feel like we're talking in circles here.

You said: We are never able to reverse on time shipping metrics or the service metrics recorded, but do have options to prevent these from negatively impacting a seller's account if the situation warrants such protection.

So in the weekly chat I asked: Would the situation in that thread warrant that protection and if so, what exactly does that mean? If at some point in the future we are subject to additional fees due to service metrics, can that be appealed because of this situation and if so, how would that work? What assurance do we have that we will be protected?

Your response in the chat was: I will address the specific situation raised in the thread you reference within the thread itself. As for potential future consequences, those would be addressed at the time they arose. The assurance you have is the confirmation I have provided the protections are available when the situation warrants protections.

You didn't answer my specific question about if this situation would warrant that protection and instead just said you can assure me that the protections are available when the situation warrants. That does nothing to assure me of anything if I can't get a straight answer as to whether or not this situation warrants such protection.

You diverted the conversation back to this thread, and then redirected the conversation back to the "unresolved" defects, just like the CS rep I spoke to on the phone did. You only touched on the service metrics to say "These will count on your return metrics unless we identify abuse on the buyer's part, at which point protections will automatically be applied."

Again, you don't specifically state if this situation has been identified as abuse on the buyer's part. Since they are still showing in our return metrics, I can only assume that means they have not been identified as abuse by the buyer and if that is the case, I have to ask why not?

I had already acknowledged that the "unresolved" defects have been removed and the money was repaid to our PayPal account, and I am grateful to eBay for assisting with those issues. However, I think it is a bit disingenuous for you to say those cases have been resolved with no negative impact to our account when those returns are still showing as being counted in our service metrics.

This is such a clear cut case of malicious, fraudulent abuse from a buyer. Why is it impossible for eBay to say "We recognize that you were a victim of fraudulent activity, we stand behind our seller protections and we are going to proactively make sure this never has any negative impact on your account, including not having these fraudulent transactions ever counted in a metric that could cause you to pay additional fees." ?

Hi @autopiacarcare, we would not be able to confirm to you if there was abuse on the buyer's account, nor would we be able to elaborate on the result of any investigation (why we did or did not determine if abuse is present). I can confirm that if this was discovered, protections would be applied for your service metrics. There would not be an appeal process for any potential increased fees in the future, as possible abuse would have already been investigated and protections applied if applicable.

As for any late shipment issue, if it can be verified that your item was shipped out late due to a carrier disruption (the weather even you mentioned) and this leads to a loss of Top Rated Seller status, we can manually reinstate this status. You would just need to contact Customer Service to have this reviewed should you find yourself in this situation.

The reason I referred to these transactions as being resolved with no negative impact to your account is because the defects you raised have been removed, there is no case closed without seller resolution strike recorded, and your current Service Metrics rating is not having a negative impact on you. The returns would rightfully be a part of this calculation unless abuse is identified, so the resolution we have provided to resolve your other concerns would not have an impact on the Service Metrics calculation, as even when a seller wins a claim or is granted an appeal, the returns are still taken into account.

I'm happy to elaborate further where possible, though many of these questions may require a more in depth conversation about your account specific details and would be best handled by Customer Service.

autopiacarcare · ‎02-21-2019

Thanks you @Anonymous . I can understand why you can't go into specifics as far as what action, if any, may be taken against the buyer. However, that wasn't what I was asking for. I was asking for information about action taken in regards to our account and I don't see that there would be any reason that you can't provide that to me as the person authorized to manage this account. If you'd prefer to provide that privately in an email or private message, that is fine, but it really should not be difficult to communicate to a seller information about their own account without violating a buyer's privacy.

I honestly would love to share with you the details that make this so obviously nothing but fraud and abuse. If this case doesn't qualify for protection because of buyer abuse than I can only conclude that nothing would, because I have never seen a more clear cut case of fraud in the 12+ years that I have personally handled multiple eBay accounts for multiple large companies.

nmemoryof · ‎02-21-2019

Wow. That's a terrible problem. I would at least attempt blocking all of them. Maybe if you see a another purchase, go ahead and try to cancel the sale and report the buyer each and every time.

I'm guessing.

nmemoryof · ‎02-21-2019

If you paid the shipping label, wouldn't the tracking number have been available automatically? All the buyer does is print off the label through the eBay/PayPal system. Then the tracking number is automatically recorded. No?

autopiacarcare · ‎02-22-2019

@nmemoryof - When we authorized the returns we chose the option to have eBay provide a label to the buyer and bill us for the shipping charges. However, the buyer never actually printed the label from eBay. eBay gives them the option to print the label from them or upload their own tracking number if they sent it back themselves.

For #2 and # 3, the buyer provided his own UPS tracking numbers that originated in GA and were delivered/"left at front door" somewhere in our city/zip code. Because they weren't shipped on our account, UPS cannot provide any information to me regarding the actual delivery addresses, but this is a commercial business address and the delivery times were during business hours, so they would not have just "left at front door".

The buyer clearly knows that all they have to do is provide a tracking number with delivery scan in the right zip code. My guess is they have some way of skimming legitimate tracking numbers from the internet based on destination zip code and those tracking numbers never really had anything to do with either the buyer or us.

The other option would be that the buyer in CA has an accomplice in GA who really did send 2 boxes to somewhere in this zip code just to get "real" tracking numbers, but I think that is pretty unlikely, especially since the items that were supposed to be returned were less than $20.

nmemoryof · ‎02-22-2019

I suppose the reason for the option is because not every buyer is able to print a label. But if they buy it, how do you pay for it? They must have to report the price paid, too. I would think a first place to check would be with the package weight and measurements. That could offer a first clue.

As for the rest, I'm sure I don't have to tell you to follow through. The carrier must show that they delivered the package to you.

If you get another purchase from that same person, cancel the purchase. It may cause a problem at first, but eventually it will become obvious. Since you are apparently going to have to suffer anyway, better to do it upfront and not lose your item and money.

If you go the route of accepting a return again, REQUIRE signature confirmation. Hey, if you have to pay anyway... I realize it just adds to the loss, but the main thing right now is to get this person to stop harassing you.

autopiacarcare · ‎02-22-2019

Thanks @nmemoryof , we already have pretty much everything covered on that front as much as possible. We've taken steps internally to try to protect ourselves as best as we can for the future and eBay has refunded us for both cases.

The only issue that hasn't been resolved at this point is just the fact that all 3 of these false NAD claims are showing in our service metrics, which could potentially cause us to pay higher fees at some point. Trinton has said he can't confirm or deny if this case is considered buyer abuse, but that if it was deemed as buyer abuse, there are automatic protections that would be applied.

I haven't seen any protections applied to the service metrics and those cases are still showing as being counted, so in the absence of any clear or direct answer from eBay, I can only assume that means they have deemed this situation not to be buyer abuse.

nmemoryof · ‎02-22-2019

Well I'm glad you got most of what you needed. eBay does a good job figuring out all this complicated stuff, though it understandably sometimes takes time. My guess is that your metrics will be corrected eventually.

I wonder what motivates someone to do that. Perhaps we will never know.

Take care. I'm thankful for these discussion boards. It can be very helpful. I tend to use them when I need them and then forget about it. I'm going to try and help some other people now and then as payback.

nodr-45 · ‎02-22-2019

@autopiacarcare wrote:
The only issue that hasn't been resolved at this point is just the fact that all 3 of these false NAD claims are showing in our service metrics, which could potentially cause us to pay higher fees at some point. Trinton has said he can't confirm or deny if this case is considered buyer abuse, but that if it was deemed as buyer abuse, there are automatic protections that would be applied.

I haven't seen any protections applied to the service metrics and those cases are still showing as being counted, so in the absence of any clear or direct answer from eBay, I can only assume that means they have deemed this situation not to be buyer abuse.

If protections were applied it would probably be behind the scenes and not visible to you. If you reach a count of 10 and those 3 returns are part of the total then you'll know.