Some questions about dealing with empty box return

[dr.kenzo.tenma]

I am dealing with an empty box return on my seller account - i.e. sold an item, got an SNAD/INAD, paid for return, and got an empty box sent back to me. My refund deadline (that is, sixth business day since receiving "item" back) is end of today. I've spent those six days either on holiday or gathering information for an appeal. I've filed a police report, mail fraud report, and IC3 report, reported the buyer, and am in the process of getting a USPS report showing a 5-pound weight disparity between what I mailed and what was mailed back to me.

This is the first time I've really chatted with customer service and now I know why everyone is so frustrated. They are terrible - unhelpful, unempowered, and in some cases outright lying to me. I verbally conveyed that I filed those reports but have not yet provided that information to ebay, since I only just now received an "upload link." I realize the initial case will almost certainly go against me if escalated, but was hoping for some help on some specific questions on what to do next:

1. Should I refund? I plan to appeal, and was told that I can't appeal if I "voluntarily" refund. Is that true?
2. If I don't refund, and the buyer escalates and wins, this would be my first defect. My understanding is that a single defect has no impact on an account, regardless of number of transactions. Is that correct?
3. The rep says they will look at the messages exchanged between buyer and seller. I sent a nice note when the SNAD request came trying to help troubleshoot or provide replacement items, but did not recieve a response. I did not send a follow up note saying I received an empty box and did not upload copies of the various reports to the return because I didn't want the buyer to see them (not sure how that is beneficial to anyone). Was that correct? Does not sending a message asking about the empty box matter? I don't expect the buyer to respond in any way, given their behavior to date.

I know the odds are stacked against me on this, but again any specific assistance would be greatly appreciated. The item was just over $200 and I'm a longtime ebay user, around 250 sales worth $20,000 in 2017, if that matters.

[green-night]

My advice would be to refund voluntarily.   It is true you can only file an appeal for a case ruled against you, however, I think you would lose the appeal anyways so why bother?  

I suggest you first contact ebay after you refund and ask for a courtesy refund.  Report the buyer first. Highly unlikely but I like to exhaust all options.    You could also try Paypal if that fails.....a long time ago Paypal refunded me for a fraudulent return like this once I provided them with proof of a police report.  That was way back when ebay & PP were joined so it could be (probably is) different now. 

[dr.kenzo.tenma]

How exactly would I ask for a courtesy refund? I have reported the buyer already. I talked to four CSRs, none of whom were particularly knowledgeable, and couldn't be escalated to someone helpful. In retrospect, talking to some of them was probably harmful due to their bad advice or lies. I'd be fine with a courtesy refund. I'm only pursuing an appeal so I can provide official documentation of the mail fraud, IP3, police reports, etc. I mentioned to every single CSR that I filed those and no opening for a courtesy refund ever appeared.

[fiftee5chevee]

Hi, did the box look tampered with (re-taped), was it the same box?..since you received no response from the Buyer ..no replies...it sounds weird/scammy....good luck to you. I hope you get your money back on this..

[dr.kenzo.tenma]

It was not the same box. It was a different box, probably one sixth or less in volume compared to the original, and was empty.

[green-night]

How exactly would I ask for a courtesy refund?

Call eBay and pitch them your sob story and ask for a courtesy refund.  Once in a blue moon you may get one.   Same with Paypal.

I wouldn't waste time with IC3.   That is the FBI and they won't care about your $200 ebay rip off. 

[fiftee5chevee]

Hi, I forgot to ask... is this a USA buyer delivery address...and was it an electronic item ?

[Anonymous]

this happen to me about 2-3 years ago. Luckily I work from home and had the tracking number that the buyer was returning. I was handed the package and opened it in front of the postal carrier and yes it was an empty box, the postal carrier was witness and I contacted ebay and brought it to their attention that I opened the package in front of the carrier... automatically won the case

[dr.kenzo.tenma]

This was for a physical item, to a U.S. buyer.

[dr.kenzo.tenma]

I had a bad feeling about the return, but not much I can do. I live in a major metropolitan area, and I can't find a USPS inspector, postmaster, manager, supervisor, or customer service rep to talk to in person. No way I would be able to do a carrier open in that way. As is, they only answer the phone once every 40-50 calls (not rings, calls). I even visited the main post office where the customer service reps are located and wasn't able to talk to one in person. I'm still trying to get the enhanced tracking information with weights emailed to me, since I can't physically pick up a copy. It was promised to arrive Friday. Still haven't gotten it.

[swenson8781]

Did your empty box come with tracking? If not, then I wouldn't even acknowledge that you received anything, as there would be no tracking to prove delivery at all.

All the other 'empty box' posts I looked up on said do not voluntarily refund, as then you can file an appeal.  Not sure about how the defect will affect your account though, sorry.  

Have you tried contacting the buyer to let them know that the box arrived empty, and that you will be pursuing a mail fraud claim, and filing a report against them for theft if they do not return the item?  That 'might' get their attention.

[dr.kenzo.tenma]

I don't expect anything to come from the IC3 report, but it doesn't take much time and demonstrates sincerity since filing such a report falsely would carry at least some remote criminal liability issues, I believe.

I was forced to pay for a return label, which I had ebay supply, and it had tracking showing delivery back to me. If the buyer hadn't sent a trackable item back within the timeframe alloted to them, I guarantee I wouldn't be posting here as this would already have been resolved.

I didn't contact the buyer about the empty box as I figured the previous lack of communication and brazen return of the empty (and much smaller) box told me everything I needed to know, but maybe that was a mistake. See question 3 in my OP.

[emerald40]

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@swenson8781 wrote:

Did your empty box come with tracking? If not, then I wouldn't even acknowledge that you received anything, as there would be no tracking to prove delivery at all.

All the other 'empty box' posts I looked up on said do not voluntarily refund, as then you can file an appeal.  Not sure about how the defect will affect your account though, sorry.  

Have you tried contacting the buyer to let them know that the box arrived empty, and that you will be pursuing a mail fraud claim, and filing a report against them for theft if they do not return the item?  That 'might' get their attention.

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Her phone calls to ebay, her reports to authorities and her thread here would prove otherwise.

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[mr_lincoln]

@dr.kenzo.tenma  The next time you call eBay ask for the Trust and Safety Department, NO OTHER, don't talk to a regular rep.  I would phone them tomorrow and let them know what you are doing and you definately want them to be aware of the Buyer so they can watch their activity in the future on any or all acounts they have registered.

Additionally, have you searched for your item to see if it is for sale somewhere?  If the Buyer is using a 2nd or 3rd ID to sell scammed items you should be able to see what town the item is being sold from on the listings.  If it matches the buyer's town or in a nearby town (in case they have a PO box for their Selling ID in a nearby zip code) then you have a little more ammunition. 

I take it the Buyer never left you Feedback?!?  If not it would not surprise me ... I have an opinion that scammers take the money and run ... we've had some bogus things happne on several accounts and the Buyers never left Feedback ...

[swenson8781]

@emerald40, yeah, that's true, and the case was SNAD in the first place, so label was issued by seller.  Was just wishful thinking I guess.

Some things/issues are avoidable, but this one probably is not, or not as easily.  I just hate seeing sellers backed into a corner with no way to resolve.