Shop Safe Act back on table, write your representatives & senators!

[tristartreasures]

The horrible Shop Safe Act has bene reintroduced by Congress & we all need to be phoning & writing our representatives & sharing the awful stories of the VERO program & how it has been used arbitrarily & incorrectly against legitimate businesses on here & elsewhere. The most dangerous part of the proposed law is that after three VERO strike you are permanently banned from the marketplace & barred from creating a new profile. That means no income whatsoever & there is no requirement for the reporting agency to provide evidence of their claim against you.

This is a massive threat to the free market and e commerce businesses in particular. I urge you all to take a second to message your senators & representatives about this. Thankfully both eBay & Amazon are going to lobby hard against it but we can't count on big money interests as that is part of the problem.

I have had a handful of false VERO complaints submitted by third party IP protection companies on here & I can tell you they would not think twice before flagging your used or new item as fake in order to fluff their reported takedowns to their clients & keep getting a check.  

[isaiah53-57]

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@tristartreasures wrote:

The horrible Shop Safe Act has bene reintroduced by Congress & we all need to be phoning & writing our representatives & sharing the awful stories of the VERO program & how it has been used arbitrarily & incorrectly against legitimate businesses on here & elsewhere. The most dangerous part of the proposed law is that after three VERO strike you are permanently banned from the marketplace & barred from creating a new profile. That means no income whatsoever & there is no requirement for the reporting agency to provide evidence of their claim against you.

This is a massive threat to the free market and e commerce businesses in particular. I urge you all to take a second to message your senators & representatives about this. Thankfully both eBay & Amazon are going to lobby hard against it but we can't count on big money interests as that is part of the problem.

I just read through a portion of the act and it appears it focuses on counterfeit products - WHICH I AM ALL FOR! I can see ebay having a hard time with this - Look at the Lego products, US Postage Stamps and OHHHHH SOOOOOOOO much more coming out of china being sold here that could very well be shut down if an act like this was passed. Here is a generalized excerpt from Chris Coons website explaining the focus of the act:

Senators Coons, Tillis introduce SHOP SAFE Act to crack down on harmful counterfeit e-commerce goods

September 28, 2023

“The number of Americans using e-commerce platforms to purchase basic and necessary goods is growing and so is the number of counterfeit goods being sold by third-party sellers on these platforms,” said Senator Tillis.“With Americans continuing to rely on online shopping, it’s crucial that we do all we can to protect consumers from dangerous counterfeit sales which are often coming from China. I look forward to working with my colleagues to effectively reduce online counterfeit sales without unnecessarily disrupting legitimate business and e-commerce platforms.”

The SHOP SAFE Act will:

1. Establish trademark infringement liability for e-commerce platforms when a third party sells a counterfeit product that poses a risk to consumer health or safety and that platform has not implemented certain best practices;
2. Require brand owners to provide platforms with advanced notice of their mark(s) and a point of contact so that the platforms can implement proactive measures to prevent sales of counterfeit goods; and  
3. Provide a safe harbor from liability for platforms that vet sellers to ensure their legitimacy, remove counterfeit listings, and remove sellers who repeatedly sell counterfeits."

[tobaccocardyahoo]

The goals of the act are noble.

Passing the definition and implementation of how they will be enforced, and preventing the passing of the costs to 3P sellers guarantees it will be done on the cheap. Anyone practicing retail arb, or selling used consumer goods will have no ability to sell on online marketplaces since the marketplace will be responsible for counterfeits.

Another law which will fatten lawyers' pockets.

I cannot think of a way to meet the goals of the law without harming a lot of innocent sellers. I am sure Sen. Coons does not care.

[dbfolks166mt]

I just read through a portion of the act and it appears it focuses on counterfeit products - WHICH I AM ALL FOR! I can see ebay having a hard time with this - Look at the Lego products, US Postage Stamps and OHHHHH SOOOOOOOO much more coming out of china being sold here that could very well be shut down if an act like this was passed. Here is a generalized excerpt from Chris Coons website explaining the focus of the act:

Senators Coons, Tillis introduce SHOP SAFE Act to crack down on harmful counterfeit e-commerce goods

September 28, 2023

“The number of Americans using e-commerce platforms to purchase basic and necessary goods is growing and so is the number of counterfeit goods being sold by third-party sellers on these platforms,” said Senator Tillis.“With Americans continuing to rely on online shopping, it’s crucial that we do all we can to protect consumers from dangerous counterfeit sales which are often coming from China. I look forward to working with my colleagues to effectively reduce online counterfeit sales without unnecessarily disrupting legitimate business and e-commerce platforms.”

The SHOP SAFE Act will:

1. Establish trademark infringement liability for e-commerce platforms when a third party sells a counterfeit product that poses a risk to consumer health or safety and that platform has not implemented certain best practices;
2. Require brand owners to provide platforms with advanced notice of their mark(s) and a point of contact so that the platforms can implement proactive measures to prevent sales of counterfeit goods; and  
3. Provide a safe harbor from liability for platforms that vet sellers to ensure their legitimacy, remove counterfeit listings, and remove sellers who repeatedly sell counterfeits."

     I tend to agree with you on the need for the law the counterfeit problem is getting out of control. The part that concerns me is like many laws the government passes they leave the actual implementation the parties effected which in this case would be the ecommerce companies like eBay, Amazon, Esty.......... 

     EBay has already shown that the VERO program is potentially being abused and a lot of genuine items are being flagged as counterfeit and the authentication programs have their share of issues as well. It also appears that the act puts the liability issues on the ecommerce company not the third party sellers which increases eBay's risk and the potential impact to their bottom line from potential law suits. Amazon was already sued, and lost, a case involving a counterfeit product. 

     While this may add some confidence to the buyer side of the equation like any action there is an equal action in the opposite direction which may be a rapid decrease in sellers, both legitimate and non-legitimate, not to mention any further policies or processes eBay, or any other ecommerce, site may put in place in an attempt to be in compliance with the law should it pass. 

     The other concern would be the tendency of companies, people and countries creativity in finding ways around road blocks. As an example while the sanctions against the Russian Federation remain in place China and other countries have setup FF companies that are receiving goods from US and other countries that have sanctions in place and simply collecting the items and forwarding them on to the Russian buyers. I can see several ways around the proposed act that would not be to difficult to implement. 

[valueaddedresource]

@tobaccocardyahoo I agree!

Eric Goldman, Associate Dean for Research, Professor of Law, and Co-Director of the High Tech Law Institute at Santa Clara University School of Law, laid out compelling arguments for how this bill, if enacted, could be a disaster for online marketplace selling back when it was first floated in 2021.

https://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2021/09/the-shop-safe-act-is-a-terrible-bill-that-will-elimina...

Excerpt:

The SHOP SAFE Act, H.R. 5374, seeks to curb harmful counterfeit items sold through online marketplaces. That’s a laudable goal that I expect everyone supports. However, this bill is itself a giant counterfeit. It claims to focus on “counterfeits” that could harm consumer “health and safety,” but those are both lies designed to make the bill seem narrower and more balanced than it actually is.

Instead of protecting consumers, this bill gives trademark owners absolute control over online marketplaces by overturning Tiffany v. eBay. It creates a new statutory species of contributory trademark liability that applies to online marketplaces (defined more broadly than you think) selling third-party items that bear counterfeit marks and implicate “health and safety” (defined more broadly than you think), unless the online marketplace operator does the impossible and successfully navigates over a dozen onerous and expensive compliance obligations.

Because the bill makes it impossible for online marketplaces to avoid contributory trademark liability, this bill will drive most or all online marketplaces out of the industry. (Another possibility is that Amazon will be the only player able to comply with the law, in which case the law entrenches an insurmountable competitive moat around Amazon’s marketplace).

If you want online marketplaces gone, you might view this as a good outcome. For the rest of us, the SHOP SAFE Act will reduce our marketplace choices, and increase our costs, during a pandemic shutdown when online commerce has become even more crucial. In other words, the law will produce outcomes that are directly opposite to what we want from Congress.

He also more recently (and rightly in my opinion) pointed out that perhaps we should require the legislators pushing for this to explain how/why the INFORM Act has failed or isn't enough before moving forward with SHOP Safe.

https://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2023/09/shop-safe-act-reintroduced-because-some-congressmember...

...I’m also confused about the timing. The INFORM Consumers Act was designed to redress the same concerns as the SHOP SAFE Act, and it just became effective a few months ago. What have we learned since then? Did the INFORM Consumers Act make a difference or not? If so, why do we need the SHOP SAFE Act? If not, why didn’t it work and what lessons can we learn from its failure?

The bill sponsors need to explain how they researched the effects of the INFORM Consumers Act and how those insights got folded into their new draft. If they haven’t even done that work, they are clearly not interested in actually solving problems.

I note that the bill draft apparently dropped the sanctions for trademark owners who send bogus takedown notices. The provision was misdesigned in the prior draft, but rather than fix it to actually curb rightsowner abuses, they just stripped it out to make it even more rightsowners-favorable.

[isaiah53-57]

There will always be a way to sell online for small/mid size sellers - Where there is a void, there will be a way... Perhaps personal websites will be the way of the future - Really, who can afford to keep lining the pockets of these site owners, CEO's and investors - There is no end to their need - The cost to sell on marketplaces will soon be out of reach for those who dont like being taken advantage of and the rest will follow soon after... Besides, if you dont think 20% to 40% of an items selling price in fees is too much? Then you can likely afford your own site with the money you would save... There will be a maturing and transition of online sales - it will be painful for some and not so much for others, but it needs to happens to gain control of fraud, counterfeits, scams, and 2nd/3rd rate sellers... I say bring it...

[tobaccocardyahoo]

Those with complaints about the VeRo program should recognize that the VeRo program does not close to  meeting the requirements of this law.

It needs to protect against ALL counterfeits, not just the products of the manufacturers who choose to participate in VeRo.

Amazon's gating of products and categories limiting sales to solely sellers who are manufacturer authorized and buy from the manufacturer's authorized wholesale channels come closer to complying. No retail purchases, no liquidation stocks, no unauthorized imports. No products which meet last year's safety standards.

Forget about vintage toys.

[az93]

I have found VERO to be so annoying. I sell used items that look fine to me. That's not good enough. I note all the companies that have given me grief over the years and I won't touch their stuff. It could be free on the curb and I would walk away. I will also never enter their brick and mortar stores or order online from them. I have a good memory and their items are toast.

[gamersbaystore]

You're all for allowing corporations to reign free in issuing millions of bogus copyright/trademark infringement claims? That's exactly what this bill is doing. It will be the end of ebay should it pass.

Vero is horribly abused by copyright trolls today. You have entire law firms now that are dedicated solely to issuing bogus claims to sue innocent people.

To make matters worse, you have big brands issuing false counterfeit claims against sellers because they don't want them to sell their products online.

I have personally been attacked with bogus claims for Vero multiple times, and forget contacting Vero, they wont respond. I have receipts for the last bogus claim, in which ebay told me there is no way to contact the Vero team at all, wouldnt even look at the the receipts.

[toomuchstuffagain35]

Not to mention this new rash of so called SAD lawsuits where members don't even know they've been named as defendants until ebay freezes their accounts on a court order.

[dbfolks166mt]

You're all for allowing corporations to reign free in issuing millions of bogus copyright/trademark infringement claims? That's exactly what this bill is doing. It will be the end of ebay should it pass.

Vero is horribly abused by copyright trolls today. You have entire law firms now that are dedicated solely to issuing bogus claims to sue innocent people.

To make matters worse, you have big brands issuing false counterfeit claims against sellers because they don't want them to sell their products online.

I have personally been attacked with bogus claims for Vero multiple times, and forget contacting Vero, they wont respond. I have receipts for the last bogus claim, in which ebay told me there is no way to contact the Vero team at all, wouldnt even look at the the receipts.

     I could not agree more that this will have an adverse impact not only on eBay but other ecommerce sites as well. The constantly expanding list of eBay prohibited and restricted items as well as the VERO program were part of the reason I diversified across multiple ecommerce platforms and other venues long ago. I have NEVER had an issue with an item being taken down because of counterfeit claims or patent/trademark infringement on any other site. 

     While I understand the intent of the VERO program it's abuse on eBay is appalling and eBay simply does not seem to care. If this law passes it's going to be a wakeup call for eBay as it cold very well be their posterior on the line. 

[dbfolks166mt]

Not to mention this new rash of so called SAD lawsuits where members don't even know they've been named as defendants until ebay freezes their accounts on a court order.

     This needs to be what seller are writing to their Congress men and women about it is becoming a mockery of the US legal system. There is a reason I have a separate checking account for my eBay deposits and a reason I keep it at or near $0. The CC connected to the account is also exclusively for eBay purchases of which there are few these days. Both can be terminated within minutes. 

[isaiah53-57]

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@gamersbaystore wrote:

You're all for allowing corporations to reign free in issuing millions of bogus copyright/trademark infringement claims? That's exactly what this bill is doing. It will be the end of ebay should it pass.

Vero is horribly abused by copyright trolls today. You have entire law firms now that are dedicated solely to issuing bogus claims to sue innocent people.

To make matters worse, you have big brands issuing false counterfeit claims against sellers because they don't want them to sell their products online.

I have personally been attacked with bogus claims for Vero multiple times, and forget contacting Vero, they wont respond. I have receipts for the last bogus claim, in which ebay told me there is no way to contact the Vero team at all, wouldnt even look at the the receipts.

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Well this I can tell you, these people that make our policies? They are a WHOLE LOT MORE concerned with consumers well-being than they are with ebay-for-fun sellers making $500 to $5000 a year in profit, many of whom who havent paid a red cent in taxes or reported their earnings toward public assistance programs...

And if ebay needs to go, due to the maturing and policing of online sales? then so be it...I personally wouldn't shed a tear...been there done that... in my opinion, the only thing going on here anymore worth talking about is seller exploitation...

[movieman630]

Some of the Chinese "legos" are things they don't make though.  My kids love the different minifigures they can get that Lego does not make.  They aren't marked lego, they're just compatible.  That shouldn't be a problem.  No different then a Chinese Automotive parts maker making ball joints for a 68 Mustang.  As long as they aren't marketing them as real Ford parts there's no problem.

[movieman630]

Who is going to "police" every product to make sure it isn't abused unfairly?  Is there going to be a court established where someone can take their item to fight back against fake VERO strikes?  Who is going to say they knew the product was fake?  What if it's just someone selling something they bought at a yard sale?  What if they have no idea what a fake looks like?  Who is going to educate everyone about all these "proprietary tells?" 

Seems to me like just another example of the biggest companies in the world being able to use their legal weight to crush all small competition. 

Not for it at all.  The "Brand Police" don't really exist.