SCAM "Item Not As Described" then ghosted

[hmlawllc]

I recently got scammed for $1300 on a freight item using the "not as described" scam. In dealing with the utterly useless customer service department, they repeatedly said they would refund the payment and not require the item to be returned, even though I managed to send a Bill of Lading to the buyer, because I did not send a UPS return label. They are clueless about freight. The buyer has gone silent 

The buyer seems to think, based on eBay's wording, that eBay has some power to give away my product. EBay states in section 7 of the user agreement that eBay does not transfer ownership because eBay is not a traditional auctioneer. 

Has anyone ever successfully asked eBay to tell a buyer, specifically, the product is still the seller's property? 

Is there ONE group investigating these "not as described" scams? The round robin messaging means I get a poor response 2/3rds of the time, if not more often, but nothing moves, regardless. 

[ananti_38]

Sellers who refuse to make arrangements for return shipping typically lose the item in the money.

[galfam]

We recieve a lot of shipping at work and as a go around-- UPS has a freight service that we get stuff from that is over 70 # Maybe you can send a bill of lading through them? and then if your buyer doesn't return the item you are covered.

[Anonymous]

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@hmlawllc wrote:

I recently got scammed for $1300 on a freight item using the "not as described" scam. In dealing with the utterly useless customer service department, they repeatedly said they would refund the payment and not require the item to be returned, even though I managed to send a Bill of Lading to the buyer, because I did not send a UPS return label. They are clueless about freight. The buyer has gone silent

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@Anonymous, what is the returns process for freight shipments? Shouldn't eBay recognize the bill of lading the seller sent to the buyer for the return?

[Anonymous]

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@hmlawllc wrote:

I recently got scammed for $1300 on a freight item using the "not as described" scam. In dealing with the utterly useless customer service department, they repeatedly said they would refund the payment and not require the item to be returned, even though I managed to send a Bill of Lading to the buyer, because I did not send a UPS return label. They are clueless about freight. The buyer has gone silent

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@Anonymous, what is the returns process for freight shipments? Shouldn't eBay recognize the bill of lading the seller sent to the buyer for the return?

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Hi @Anonymous, the process for returns with freight shipments would be the same as for other shipments; if the seller is responsible for return shipping, then they would need to ensure this is covered for the buyer. Since freight shipments would not be eligible for an eBay return label, the seller would have to explore alternatives and provide proof to eBay that they have arranged the return of the item. If a seller does not arrange return shipment or does not provide proof to eBay that this was arranged, they would not be protected in the return request.

[dtexley3]

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@hmlawllc wrote:

I recently got scammed for $1300 on a freight item using the "not as described" scam. In dealing with the utterly useless customer service department, they repeatedly said they would refund the payment and not require the item to be returned, even though I managed to send a Bill of Lading to the buyer, because I did not send a UPS return label. They are clueless about freight. The buyer has gone silent

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@Anonymous, what is the returns process for freight shipments? Shouldn't eBay recognize the bill of lading the seller sent to the buyer for the return?

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Hi @Anonymous, the process for returns with freight shipments would be the same as for other shipments; if the seller is responsible for return shipping, then they would need to ensure this is covered for the buyer. Since freight shipments would not be eligible for an eBay return label, the seller would have to explore alternatives and provide proof to eBay that they have arranged the return of the item. If a seller does not arrange return shipment or does not provide proof to eBay that this was arranged, they would not be protected in the return request.

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@Anonymous  I don't think you addressed the entire issue.  From the above thread it sounds like the OP did arrange for return shipping and provided the buyer a bill of lading for pickup of the item.  It also sounds like CS was unable to understand or accept that a bill of lading is proof of return shipping being provided.  

@hmlawllc is this the case?   

Trinton, it really sounds like this may have been mishandled by CS (again).

[missjen831]

Actually, I wonder if the OP failed to upload the bill of laden to the return request?

[Anonymous]

Thanks, Trinton. I am wondering the same thing as dtexley and jenn - whether the seller neglected to upload the BoL to the return request or whether CS mishandled the situation.

[Anonymous]

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@dtexley3 wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@hmlawllc wrote:

I recently got scammed for $1300 on a freight item using the "not as described" scam. In dealing with the utterly useless customer service department, they repeatedly said they would refund the payment and not require the item to be returned, even though I managed to send a Bill of Lading to the buyer, because I did not send a UPS return label. They are clueless about freight. The buyer has gone silent

---

@Anonymous, what is the returns process for freight shipments? Shouldn't eBay recognize the bill of lading the seller sent to the buyer for the return?

---

Hi @Anonymous, the process for returns with freight shipments would be the same as for other shipments; if the seller is responsible for return shipping, then they would need to ensure this is covered for the buyer. Since freight shipments would not be eligible for an eBay return label, the seller would have to explore alternatives and provide proof to eBay that they have arranged the return of the item. If a seller does not arrange return shipment or does not provide proof to eBay that this was arranged, they would not be protected in the return request.

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@Anonymous  I don't think you addressed the entire issue.  From the above thread it sounds like the OP did arrange for return shipping and provided the buyer a bill of lading for pickup of the item.  It also sounds like CS was unable to understand or accept that a bill of lading is proof of return shipping being provided.  

@hmlawllc is this the case?   

Trinton, it really sounds like this may have been mishandled by CS (again).

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Hi @dtexley3, though I am not able to go into specific detail, I can confirm that correct action was taken. @hmlawllc, if you have any further questions you can respond to the most recent email you received for this case.

For general clarification, if we have a record of the bill of lading in a return this will be sufficient for return shipping arrangements. If return shipping arrangements are not made within the timeframe we provide or if confirmation of this is not given to eBay within that timeframe, we are not able to offer the seller protection. The email we send out to sellers in these situations outlines the steps that must be taken, the timeframe for their case and what will happen if our request is not met. If a seller ever has questions or concerns, they can contact Customer Service for case specific assistance.

[Anonymous]

@hmlawllc, sorry this happened but it sounds like you either didn't upload a copy of the BoL to the return request, or you did so outside of the timeframe eBay provides. Next time call eBay CS to let them know how long it takes to make arrangements for return freight shipment and ask for an extension if you need one.

If the buyer's not responding to your messages then call them and ask that they return the item since you arranged return shipment.

[hmlawllc]

You summarized it perfectly. I sent a Bill of Lading, which is all a shipping label is for a package, and the buyer refused to permit the truck to pick up the item saying he wanted a "return label with tracking." Since that is what a Bill of Lading does, I sent it to him again, sent a copy to the round robin of CS agents who touch the case for ten seconds and send a boilerplate response, and then he went silent. I am 100% sure his plan was to do this and keep the product. 
The item was two large cabinets on a single pallet at nearly 500#. It takes a pallet jack and a truck with a lift gate.
Since eBay cannot pass title, and he rescinded teh contract of sale when he requested a return, the item is still mine. 
However, despite section 7 of the eBay Ts&Cs saying that eBay does not pass tiotle, the wording from CS is that the buyer can keep the item. That is a power eBay does not have, to give away something that they do not own.
I want to know if anyone has gotten a letter from eBay that quotes the eBay user agreement and tells the buyer the item is not his.
I assume I will have to hire an attorney in Cincinnati to sue the buyer, so I can get this sale item back and then see what damage he may have done to it and get it resold.
But I bet the attorney would appreciate such a letter.

[hmlawllc]

The buyer is refusing to answer the phone or any texts. That's why I said "ghosting." The only way his actions make sense is if his plan was to have the product and not pay for it. Otherwise, he would have complied with my attempts to retrieve the product. At this point, he has no reason to keep it, other than theft.
The CS suggestion to contact CS makes no sense since each person who reviewed the case seemed to know nothing about it, about every third person contradicted what the other agents said, and just about no one seemed to understand that freight requires the BOL to be generated *at pickup.* That is the moment when the freight company's responsibities inhere to the contract. In the numerous messages on this issue, it is clear than no one at eBay followed the plot.
LET ME BE CLEAR:

At this point, I just want eBay to issue a statement to the buyer in accordance with section 7 of the User Agreement stating that the items still belong to me, not the buyer, since the buyer repudiated the agreement to purchase the product. The wording on the numerous emails implies that eBay somehow gave the buyer product to which eBay never had any rights of ownership. That result violates section 7 of the User Agreement.
Thanks to everyone who answered OTHER questions, but I want a letter that the product is mine. That is all. Has anyone ever successfully had eBay issue such a letter?

[hmlawllc]

Hello trinton@ebay, 

Can you issue or cause to be issued a letter in accordance with section 7 of the User Agreement stating that ebay is unable to transfer ownership and does not transfer ownership of any items?
That is what I seek. That is all I expect from eBay at this point.
If you cannot, do you know who can?
This should not be as difficult as people seem to think it is. The User Agreement specifically states that eBay does not transfer ownership. I want that restated in a short letter to the buyer, ideally referencing the item number, but at least the wording I indicated.

[hmlawllc]

Hello trinton@ebay:

For your reference, here is the thread of messages, edited only to remove the buyer's ID and for length.-H

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RE: Re: Your concern about the item #253643714410 SR# 1-173022558920

From:eBay

To:hmlawllc

Sent:Sep-03-18 06:40

RE: Re: Your concern about the item #253643714410 SR# 1-173022558920

Dear H,

Thanks for contacting eBay and for your prompt response about the case 5175388519.

Please be advised that there was no result yet for the request that we sent for you. As for your request, I've already sent an email to your buyer asking them to ship the item back to you.

For the meantime, kindly continue communicating with your buyer.

Thanks for choosing eBay.

Sincerely,

Gerald V. 

eBay

[THREAD ID: 1-28ROOD3Q]

From: Howard

Sent: 9/3/2018 1:25:50 PM

To: customerhelp@ebay.com 

Subject: Re: Your concern about the item #253643714410 SR# 1-173022558920

CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT THE RESULT OF THIS WAS:

"Howard, upon review I was able to provide a return label to the buyer, this claim was already forwarded to our refund team for further reinvestigation. It would take 5-7 days for the process." -- Lesley V.

Marjorie Ann, NO, I AM NOT SATISFIED. I WOULD APPRECIATE A MESSAGE FROM EBAY to the buyer THAT STATES:

"Dear Buyer,

We closed this escalation with a refund to you. Because eBay never had title to this product, we cannot pass title to you. For that reason, the product belongs to the seller.  Please work directly with the seller to return the item. We understand the seller has already unsuccessfully attempted to retrieve the item. We expect you will work cooperatively with the seller to get this matter resolved."

That would end this discussion. Can you at least do that?

Kind regards,

H

On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 9:03 AM <customerhelp@ebay.com> wrote:

RE: Your concern about the item #253643714410 SR# 1-173022558920

Dear Howard,

Thanks for contacting eBay in regard to the Vintage Infinity QLS-1 Loudspeaker Pair (253643714410) you sold.  I understand that you disagree with the case closure because you want your item back. My name is Marjorie Ann and I am here to explain this further to you. 

Howard, as much as I want to reverse the decision, I regret to inform you that this case decision is final and we’re not able to grant this appeal. Please understand that at the time eBay had to step in and make a decision on this case, we placed this case on hold for 5 days to give you ample time to provide a return shipping label. We did this because the buyer is claiming that the item is not as described. We want to make sure that you get the item and inspect it. Our expectation is for you to provide the return shipping label to your buyer so that we can create a great overall customer experience.

You may now contact the buyer and request for the item to send you if you want the item. Remember that you have two option on how you can send the buyer means of return (1) provide them the return label or (2) provide them the funds sufficient for them to purchase the return label.

I trust that I was able to explain the outcome of this case. At the same time, I trust that you will understand why we denied this appeal.

Sincerely,

Marjorie Ann M.

eBay

[THREAD ID: 1-28PVFT8J]

From: H

Sent: 9/2/2018 1:57:29 PM

Subject: Your concern about the item #253643714410 SR# 1-173022558920

Hello Lesley V,

It has now been more than 7 days (please see your message below). Have you determined any other information regarding the return of my product? I am now in The Hague, Netherlands, but will be traveling back to the US in September. I need to know if I will have to plan a flight to Cincinnati to retrieve my property. 

eBay should not give a buyer the impression that it can pass title to a buyer who claims the item is not as described. eBay never had title, so can pass nothing to the buyer. The buyer seems to think that you can give him property that is not yours. Only I can pass title, and that only occurs with payment.

I want my product back, the buyer refuses to release it, and he has been refunded the entire purchase price, including $500 in shipping costs I had to pay myself. What is your proposed resolution of this issue?

Kind regards.

H

Previous Message Follows

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Your concern about the item #253643714410 SR# 1-173022558920

Dear Howard, 

Thanks for contacting us about the Vintage Infinity Loudspeaker, item # 253643714410 that you sold. My name is Lesley and I am a specialist for eBay's Resolution Center. I want to make sure you are taken care of today. I understand that the you already sent out a return shipping label to the buyer, yet the case was closed. We know how disappointing this can be for any seller in any line of business, and for this we truly apologize. I’ll be glad to help you get this resolved.

Howard, upon review I was able to provide a return label to the buyer, this claim was already forwarded to our refund team for further reinvestigation. It would take 5-7 days for the process.

I trust this information is helpful and wish you all the best for your future trading on eBay.

Sincerely,

Lesley V.

eBay

[THREAD ID: 1-27ND0T1O]

From: H

Sent: 8/17/2018 4:11:11 AM

To: customerhelp@ebay.com

Subject: Re: Re: SiteUpload SR# 1-173022558920

Hello Janine,

The label I sent to the buyer meets or exceeds the requirements you set. 

Here it is again. Please tell me specifically what is wrong with this prepaid label. I supply it in pdf format and in png, which is how I sent it to the buyer.

Howard Hudson

On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 6:13 PM, <customerhelp@ebay.com> wrote:

RE: Re: SiteUpload SR# 1-173022558920

Hi Howard,

Thank you for your response here in eBay.

You can try to check the link below to see a valid sample of a shipping label.

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS789US789&tbm=isch&q=sample+shipping+label&backchip=onl...

I trust this information helps.

We really appreciate you for doing business with us.

Again, thank you for choosing eBay and have a great day.

Sincerely,

Janine N.

eBay

[THREAD ID: 1-27MLBY5Q]

From: Howard Hudson <heh.hmlaw@gmail.com>

Sent: 8/16/2018 7:28:49 PM

To: customerhelp@ebay.com

Subject: Re: SiteUpload SR# 1-173022558920

Hello:

What is an acceptable shipping label for this purpose? Can you describe it or provide an example?

Thank you.

Howard Hudson

On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 9:27 PM, <customerhelp@ebay.com> wrote:

RE: SiteUpload SR# 1-173022558920

Dear Howard, 

Thank you for contacting eBay about the item# (253643714410), that you have sold. I appreciate the effort in informing us this matter, and you did facilitate a shipping label to return this item as proof of the bill of laiding. My name is Noid Christian, and rest assured that I will help you with your situation.

I know where you are coming from as this transaction has been an inconvenience to you, and this is definitely not the kind of experience we want our seller's to go through while selling items here in eBay.

Looking into the case details, I can see that we have extended this return for 5 days last August 5 - 10, 2018 for you to provide the buyer funds or a shipping label for them to ship this item back to you, and because we haven't received or gather any information from you within the given timeframe, we have closed this case in your buyer's favor and issue them a full refund.

However Howard, we agree to have extended this case for 5 days as we assure that you will have enough time to provide the buyer a means of return at the same time, we have also informed the same day we extended this case that if you don't respond to the case an provide the buyer a means of return, we will refund them without returning this item.

Please do not think that we decided to close this case in your buyer’s favor because we do not trust you, and I understand how important to you to have this item back since the buyer has been refunded.

Right now, I think its best that you continue to communicate with your buyer, and ask them to return the item with funds for them to purchase a shipping label in returning this item to you.

Here's how to send your buyer an email:

1. Click "My eBay" at the top of most eBay pages. You may be asked to sign in.

1. Click the "Sold" link.

1. Locate the item and click the buyer's username. You may need to sign in again.

1. Click the "Contact Member" button, type your message, and then click the "Send" button.

I know this is not the response you are expecting, and I am hoping for your understanding prior to the closure of this case.

We value you doing business here.

Sincerely,

Noid Christian M.

eBay Customer Service

[THREAD ID: 1-27KPT60C]

From: <heh.hmlaw@gmail.com>

Sent: 8/16/2018 4:09:21 AM 

Subject: RE: SiteUpload SR# 1-173022558920

It is not helpful to have so many people involved. A Bill of Lading is a shipping label for freight shipments. You have a copy of that. So does the buyer. I want my product back, and short of flying to Cincinnati and demanding it, I have to use a shipper to do that. The Bill of Lading is the label that will be affixed to the freight. If there is some other form of shipping label other than the one that is used worldwide for freight, I would like to know what that is.

The buyer scammed me using your process.

I want my product back. He never released it to me, free of charge to him. eBay helped him steal from me. Thanks. I expect I will have ALL my fees reversed for this robbery.

Previous Message Follows

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RE: SiteUpload SR# 1-173022558920

Dear H,

Thanks for contacting eBay about the loud speaker that you sold to “d****4”. [Ed - H] I understand that you would like to appeal the case outcome because you have arranged to pick up the item from the buyer’s address however, your buyer is not responding to your messages.

Upon checking, I see that your buyer chose a valid reason for the return of the said item, thus, we require you to facilitate the return. We appreciate your effort in trying to resolve the issue by contacting a courier to pick up the item from the buyer’s location.

I carefully checked the transaction and exchange of messages between you and your buyer. Based on our record, I do not see any exchange of emails about pick up on eBay Messages.

At the time eBay had to step in and make a decision on this case, we placed this case on hold for 4 days to give you ample time to provide a return shipping label or send your buyer money through PayPal to cover the shipping cost. We did this because the buyer is claiming that the item is not as described. We want to make sure that you get the item and inspect it. Our expectation is for you to provide the return shipping label to your buyer so that we can create a great overall customer experience.

I know that all you wanted to do is get the item back however, we cannot grant an appeal on this decision now because you were not able to provide the return shipping label or send the return shipping cost to your buyer during the time allotted.

At this point, I strongly recommend working with your customer by sending a message to see if they can still return the item to you. They might have overlooked the situation and might be willing to settle for a partial refund and might be willing to pay you back partially. We've found that most issues between buyers and sellers can be resolved through simple, respectful communication.

If you feel a buyer is taking advantage of your return policy, you can anonymously report the buyer to us. Just click the "Need to report the buyer?" link at the top of the Return details page. We won't reply to you directly, but we'll use this data to help identify bad buying behavior across our marketplace and help protect sellers against buyers who repeatedly misuse the eBay marketplace.

You may also block your buyer from purchasing your other items. To block certain bidders or buyers:

1. Click the "Site Map" link near the bottom of most eBay pages.
2. In the "Sell" column, click the "Block Bidder/Buyer List" link.
3. Click the "Add an eBay user to my Blocked Bidder/Buyer List" link.
4. Enter the usernames of the members that you want to block, and then click the "Submit" button.

If you'd like to learn more about seller being responsible for return shipping charges, please visit this page:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/buy/return-item.html#shipping-charges.

I understand this may not have been the outcome you were hoping for, but I trust I have clearly explained our decision. We would want to serve you the best as one of eBay’s valued customer. We are looking forward to do more transactions with you and wish you best in the future.

Thank you for your understanding and for choosing eBay!

Sincerely,

Maria Milina A.

eBay

[THREAD ID: 1-27K555PN]

From: <heh.hmlaw@gmail.com>

Sent: 8/15/2018 9:27:54 PM

Subject: RE: SiteUpload SR# 1-173022558920

Hello Kyla:

The case number that generated a refund without any return of the product, after sending a filled out pre-paid Bill of Lading to the buyer is 517 538 8519. I do not care that eBay ignored its own rules and issued a full refund without permitting inspection of the product for damage, nor do I care that eBay issued a refund, my issue is that the buyer REFUSED to permit me to take possession of the product and eBay decided that his reponsibilities ended. 

I sent him the BOL, and tried repeatedly to arrange pickup, at no cost to the buyer, and he steadfastly refused to make the item available to my agent.

eBay can pass along no better title than it had, which was none, so the product is still mine. I want my product back. The buyer needs to make it available to my shipping agent. He has not done so. Now, he has no incentive to do so.

I expect eBay to help me get my product, or to reassess this refund until he gives me back my product.

Kind regards,

H

Previous Message Follows

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RE: SiteUpload SR# 1-173022558920

Dear H,

Thanks for contacting us about your transaction. I am Kyla from the Resolution Center.

Thank you for sending to us the ‘straight bill of lading’. I really appreciate your effort in sending this information to us. Let me further assist you with this.

I have checked your account and I can see that you have several cases. Please understand that I cannot randomly pick one and assume it as the transaction you have issue with. Because of this, I would ask some information for us to pick the correct claim to better assist you.

We're happy to help you resolve this and we need a little more information. Please reply to this email to let us know:

- The item number(s) of the item(s) in question

- Your eBay username and the username(s) of the other member(s)

- Any other information you think might help us resolve this

We look forward to hearing back from you so we can look into this.

I really appreciate your time in reading my email. I trust that I was able to provide the needed information.

Thanks for choosing eBay.

Best regards,

Kyla M.

eBay

[THREAD ID: 1-27HH5WWA]

[robot-hands]

Yeeesh. That's overseas CSR flow chart speak. You won't be getting any help there.