mam98031 • Volunteer Community Member • Buyer/Seller since 1999
@Anonymous wrote:
@mam98031 wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
@bigdeals.etc wrote:
@goodluckselling wrote:eBay staff has told us that returns need to be done through the returns flow process. Full refunds issued to buyers outside this path will result in a possible out of stock cancellation defect.
They also said if there is communications through the eBay message system prior explaining you plan to issue a full refund, that eBay might review that communications and remove a defect.
If you just refund outside the return process I do not think there is a way for eBay to credit you back the fees. This would be an action you took on your own. No way to attach your action to anything?
Good Luck Selling!
I don't agree with everything here. There's no policy that says returns need to be handled within ebay returns process. I double checked and asked my CS agent a few times, they all said going outside of eBay to do this isn't against policy... but it's risky for the seller. I agree with the agents that it is indeed risky, but allowed.
A full refund issued thru PayPal shouldn't cause an OOS cancellation defect. Because as far as eBay is concerned, the transaction didn't get cancelled and linked tracking info still shows the item was delivered. You just lose your FVF.
I don't recommend anyone do this method, but there may be weird circumstances that I'm not aware of in which someone might want to do this. So to answer the OPs questions: 1) Yes. 2) Generally no, but you might get lucky if you talk to the right agent.
Hi @bigdeals.etc, a full refund (which for the purposes of this topic include any refund of 80% or more of the payment) through PayPal without a corresponding eBay Money Back Guarantee claim or a cancellation can lead to an Out Of Stock defect being recorded. This was stated in the 2015 Seller Update where defects were first announced, more details here. There are some scenarios where a cancellation, item not received request, or return request would not be the best fit or are not available and in these situations, as long as there is communication between the buyer and the seller via eBay messages about the refund, an OOS defect will not be recorded.
@Anonymous
This is a change over Ebay's position on this subject that was extensively discussed on the Weekly Chat most recently in mid February. My opinion on this has always been the same and I feel strongly about is as you are painfully aware.
Before the Service Metrics, as long as the seller communicated with the buyer within the Ebay email system regarding a refund not covered by an open claim, the seller was fine. No defects. So I see we are going back to that, which I personally think is appropriate.
So this also means that while Ebay "recommends" that a claim always be opened it is still a recommendation and not a requirement as was previously thought and communicated to us on the Weekly Chat and various other threads?
From the link you provided: Any transaction cancelled through eBay or refunded through PayPal because the seller no longer has the item or chooses not to ship the item will count in the defect rate as a seller-cancelled transaction. Transactions that are cancelled because the buyer no longer wants the item are not counted in the defect rate.
Will Ebay give sellers back a reason in the cancellation process to accommodate this as it was taken away last year?
Hi @mam98031, happy to elaborate. I want to start out by clarifying that an Out Of Stock defect may have been recorded prior to the introduction of Service Metrics when a refund is not issued within our standard processes. While these instances are uncommon, I have spoken to some sellers who have had these types of defects recorded when a refund was not processed using the appropriate channel, and I can say that for my personal experience with these conversations, all of these instances occured prior to our announcement and implementation of Service Metrics.
As I've mentioned before, if there is communication present on eBay to explain the refund, an Out Of Stock defect will not be recorded. We may record a defect if we find the seller is intentionally avoiding the appropriate process to manipulate their metrics. If a refund is issued through PayPal without any context (no cancellation, item not received request, return request, or communication on eBay) we will assume this was refunded because the item is out of stock or has otherwise chosen not to ship.
I apologize for any confusion, as we discussed in the weekly chat regarding the use of the term recommendation, I can clarify that this simply is not as black and white as one may hope; a seller is required to use the appropriate avenue to refund. Choosing to not use the appropriate refund pathway could lead to an Out Of Stock defect. When we do not know the reason for a refund, or when we suspect the seller is manipulating their metrics by avoiding the existing processes, consequences will be applied. There are some situations where a refund cannot be processed on eBay through an existing process (a partial refund for a shipping discount after the buyer has paid, for example) and this is perfectly acceptable to process through PayPal.
The reason we have stated that we recommend the appropriate pathway in the past is because there are exceptions that many sellers run into with some regularity (such as the example provided above). After our discussion regarding the use of the word recommend, I want to clarify that it is more accurate to say that this is an expectation, as there are consequences for not taking the appropriate steps we have outlined.
@Anonymous
Thank you for coming back and clarifying a bit more for us / me. Unlike what was shared in the Weekly Chat, your comments here go a little deeper, which is a good thing. @goodluckselling was involved in part of the discussion on the Weekly Chats and as they stated above it was made clear by them and you that doing a full refund without benefit of a claim was simply a NO NO.
I always contented that Ebay had allow us more flexibility in the past and I'm very happy to know that it is still there and valid. While on the Weekly Chat I did speak to emails between trading partners on what was transpiring, I was made to feel that it was wrong to do this. When even though the emails were within Ebay I would somehow be working outside the system. Which made absolutely no sense to me. When prior to the Service Metrics it was always allowed. So I am please to know that after all this debate it is still the same as it was before the introduction of the Service Metrics.
I completely respect and understand about the importance of having claims filed when needed. I get that and I support that. They just aren't always needed to make the customer completely happy, in fact at times they do the opposite. So I am relieved to know that the flexibility is still there.
Yes I think there was a bit of confusion on both sides with this one and I'm very pleased we continued to discuss it until there was clarity on the situation. That is the wonderful thing about debating a subject. It may get a bit painful at times, but continued communications will usually result in clarity for all. I really THANK YOU for that. I know this subject got a bit sticky at times to say the least. Your persistence and hard work is GREATLY appreciated.
@no_zero369 wrote:WOW! Ur like a dog with a bone - never give up!
Thanks for driving this topic to fruition!
So does this mean that the blue text in reply #29 is now the standard advice that needs to be give to all who show up on these threads with "returns" issues?
You know me too well !!!! Yes, I've always been that way. Trinton has gotten to know me pretty well over the last year or so. And much to his dismay he knows what you speak to be the truth, but he is always gracious and respectful. And I can't tell you how happy I am to get this subject worked out.
I had a very knowledgeable person explain my personality to me years ago. He knew me very well for years. He said it had to do with my logical mind. He said my mind was more logical than anyone he had ever met in his life / career. Because of that my mind has a hard time accepting something that just doesn't ring true or logical to me. So I stay after it, asking questions and trying to learn. Not that I'm always right, as nothing could be further from the truth, but because until I can settle it in my mind, I can't accept it. So I ask questions often to the point of great irritation to others. But I NEVER mean it that way. I'm simply trying to understand so I can digest and utilize the information.
Until it makes sense to me I just can't.
I think you mean 39. Then I'd say yes. Or just give a link to the thread. I've saved a link to this thread for any future needs.
I've never done that "standard advice" you refer to EXCEPT when a claim is already opened.
If a buyer emails me with an issue, I don't have anything standard that I do other than try to resolve any issue they have. I take each situation on a case by case basis and I try not to assume anything.
For me to use a email such as you suggest would be unusual. If I can handle whatever my customer needs through emails, I will do so. If there is a need to open a claim, I will suggest it but not require it of my customer. But I do not have a canned response for any of this as IMHO it needs to be handled on a case by case bases without assuming anything.
Translation - If you go directly through PayPal the bots will possibly pick up a defect and you will need to call CS to get it removed.
Actually no, it is much easier than that. If you run into a need to refund your buyer in part or in full, make sure that BEFORE you refund that you send them an email inside of Ebay outlining WHY you are issuing the refund. This applies only when there is NO CLAIM in place to work from.
It isn't more complicated than that.
@siayan wrote:
@mam98031 wrote:
Translation - If you go directly through PayPal the bots will possibly pick up a defect and you will need to call CS to get it removed.
Actually no, it is much easier than that. If you run into a need to refund your buyer in part or in full, make sure that BEFORE you refund that you send them an email inside of Ebay outlining WHY you are issuing the refund. This applies only when there is NO CLAIM in place to work from.
It isn't more complicated than that.
@mam98031 You may be right but I just don't think whenever they get a direct PayPal refund someone checks to read the eBay messages. Doesn't sound like eBay to me. Last word, go.
I never said or suggested that someone at Ebay goes in and read all these messages. They have bots for that.
If you take a look again at post 39 by Trinton and look at the link he provided from the 2015 Seller update. It is explained there as well.
