New** Oct 1, 2019 Top rated Seller protection policy / Free return - Service Metrics update issue

[m2-racing]

Hi Everyone & ebay, 

I got an issue regarding for the new Oct 1st, 2019 Top rated seller protection. 

We selling different categories on ebay, and one of the categories (home & garden) got "very high" return ratio (item not as described). Based on forums and ebay merchant support information, it should be affect on that category only, and all other categories should not be affect and keep protected.

Today, we tried to issue partial refund to some of the buyers. And we found out that we cannot issue partial refund to all of the returns no matter what kind of categories they are. Just called EBAY merchant support earlier this morning, and we got different answer now. And they said it will affect on all of the categories now when there is 1 category failed one of the service metrics. 

And we are no longer protected by EBAY SELLER PROTECTION even though we offering free return. 

No feedback removed

No partial refund even though buyer used the item. 

Anyone has the same issues? Or any of EBAY rep. can help or fix it? 

Thank you

[m2-racing]

Hi Tyler, 

Thank you so much for your reply. 

We understand that the additional fee will be charge if the service metrics is rated "very high". 

My concern is it should be affect that category since all my other categories has low rating only. And it's not fair to the sellers who offered "free return". Just imaging 1000 sales, 10 returns INAD, it will be about 1% return rate already.  And we got more returns than before after we opted in to FREE RETURN program. 

We hope EBAY can change something in the future to protect sellers who offered FREE RETURN. We have a lot of buyers asked to return even though they altered the items. 

[m2-racing]

Yes, based on the ebay merchant support reps. stated : they will remove all of your seller protections on all of the categories if one of the category have a very high INR return rating.

And it's kind of not fair to sellers honestly.

[m2-racing]

mam98031,

Yes, based on the new Seller protection policy, it will no longer able to refund 50% refund or feedback remove even though you offered a free return. All of the seller protections will be removed if one of the category has "VERY HIGH" rated. It's not making any senses for sellers who offered a free return anymore.

We got more returns than before after opted in to FREE RETURN. Buyers will open a return to INADs reason even though they don't like it.

[mam98031]

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@m2-racing wrote:
Yes, based on the ebay merchant support reps. stated : they will remove all of your seller protections on all of the categories if one of the category have a very high INR return rating.

And it's kind of not fair to sellers honestly.

---

I completely agree with you.  One category should not have this affect on the entirety of what a seller sells in other categories.

The only way with the rules as they are right now that I can see around this.  Is to have separate selling IDs for every category you sell in.  That can be burdensome on sellers and completely unnecessary.

[mam98031]

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@m2-racing wrote:
mam98031,

Yes, based on the new Seller protection policy, it will no longer able to refund 50% refund or feedback remove even though you offered a free return. All of the seller protections will be removed if one of the category has "VERY HIGH" rated. It's not making any senses for sellers who offered a free return anymore.

We got more returns than before after opted in to FREE RETURN. Buyers will open a return to INADs reason even though they don't like it.

---

If having Free Returns is not cost effective for you, switch to 30 day returns with buyer pays shipping.  

Once you are out of the woods on this Service Metrics thing, you will gain back your Seller Protections and the ability to refund a discounted amount to buyers as needed.

[zamo-zuan]

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@Anonymous wrote:

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Hi @brettyg599, comparing different business models would not be fair. For example, let's say in a specific category that offering to ship internationally doubles your sales, but increases your overall return rate by 2% on average. The added profits more than make up for the increase in returns, but if we compared your business to those who does not offer international shipments you may be considered Very High in relation to others. When compared to those with a similar business model, you are in line with what would be expected. 

Your peer group is determined by identifying sellers who have a similar business model as you - return policy, number of transactions, item condition, etc. This ensures that small businesses who may have a higher percentage of returns simply because they have sold less items are not penalized unduly. A seller who has sold 100 items and has their 11th not as described return opened would not be fairly compared to a seller who has sold 10,000 items and has had their 1,000th not as described return requested - though the larger business has a lower percentage, it is must more reasonable to say the smaller business may have simply been "unlucky" or has been addressing some growing pains as they develop their business. These kind of growing pains are normal early on, but should be overcome by the time a business has matured.

Another example could be  a seller who only sells brand new items will most likely have a lower number of not as described returns as a seller who sells used products - the category may be saturated with used products, leading the not as described return rate to be higher in that category, but the category rate would not be relevant for a seller who sells only brand new items. The seller focusing solely on brand new merchandise might have a 3% not as described return rate, while the category average may be 9%. When compared to the category average, they would be rated Very Low, but when compared to other sellers who only sell brand new items, we may find that those sellers average a 1.2% rate of not as described returns and the example seller is actually Very High when compared to the appropriate peer group. 

We are confident our peer group calculations are the best course of action to ensure fairness. While I can understand the desire for more information, this is not something we will provide. 

---

If comparing different business models would not be fair, then how come the peer metrics are doing exactly that...?

The entire Motors > Parts & Accessories section is treated as the SAME CATEGORY. 

As an example, Ignition Coils have a very high defect rate. Strong manufacturers advertise "only a 2% defect rate". This is treated as the same category as Engine Mounts, which have a lower defect rate. 

Someone who sell exclusively Ignition Coils is basically doomed to face the penalty, even though they may have far better metrics than the other sellers who actually sell Ignition Coils. 

But eBay is doing the exact thing you mention would not be fair; they ARE comparing different business models to each other.

I've raised this issue many times and it has never been addressed by eBay. I would appreciate it if this could get a response, as certain categories are basically impossible to sell in without the penalty.

[zamo-zuan]

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@mam98031 wrote:

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@m2-racing wrote:
mam98031,

Yes, based on the new Seller protection policy, it will no longer able to refund 50% refund or feedback remove even though you offered a free return. All of the seller protections will be removed if one of the category has "VERY HIGH" rated. It's not making any senses for sellers who offered a free return anymore.

We got more returns than before after opted in to FREE RETURN. Buyers will open a return to INADs reason even though they don't like it.

---

If having Free Returns is not cost effective for you, switch to 30 day returns with buyer pays shipping.  

Once you are out of the woods on this Service Metrics thing, you will gain back your Seller Protections and the ability to refund a discounted amount to buyers as needed.

---

I'm a bit confused by this thread, but would Free Returns actually help him?

Please correct me if I missed something. Wasn't a part of the issue the OP mentioned that they claim Free Returns also does not allow you partial refunds anymore unless you are TRS as well? 

[mam98031]

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@zamo-zuan wrote:

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@mam98031 wrote:

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@m2-racing wrote:
mam98031,

Yes, based on the new Seller protection policy, it will no longer able to refund 50% refund or feedback remove even though you offered a free return. All of the seller protections will be removed if one of the category has "VERY HIGH" rated. It's not making any senses for sellers who offered a free return anymore.

We got more returns than before after opted in to FREE RETURN. Buyers will open a return to INADs reason even though they don't like it.

---

If having Free Returns is not cost effective for you, switch to 30 day returns with buyer pays shipping.  

Once you are out of the woods on this Service Metrics thing, you will gain back your Seller Protections and the ability to refund a discounted amount to buyers as needed.

---

I'm a bit confused by this thread, but would Free Returns actually help him?

Please correct me if I missed something. Wasn't a part of the issue the OP mentioned that they claim Free Returns also does not allow you partial refunds anymore unless you are TRS as well? 

---

No.

There is a set of protections that are offered to sellers with Free Returns.  You can be a seller of any size or level and have Free Returns if you choose.

There is a set of protections that are offered to TRS member with at least a 30 day return policy of some kind [it does NOT have to be Free returns] that became effective October 1st.

Those are two separate sets of protections.  Two different ways to obtain them.  The TRS protections are more extensive than the ones for Free Returns.

Since the OP has had the unfortunate issue of falling prey to the Service Metrics, they lost the ability to have any seller protections offered for either of the areas I described above for any category they sell in.  

So while the penalty fees only apply in the category in which the rated Very High in the service metrics, they lose their Seller protection in the two areas I described above in ALL categories they sell in.

[zamo-zuan]

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@mam98031 wrote:

---

@zamo-zuan wrote:

---

@mam98031 wrote:

---

@m2-racing wrote:
mam98031,

Yes, based on the new Seller protection policy, it will no longer able to refund 50% refund or feedback remove even though you offered a free return. All of the seller protections will be removed if one of the category has "VERY HIGH" rated. It's not making any senses for sellers who offered a free return anymore.

We got more returns than before after opted in to FREE RETURN. Buyers will open a return to INADs reason even though they don't like it.

---

If having Free Returns is not cost effective for you, switch to 30 day returns with buyer pays shipping.  

Once you are out of the woods on this Service Metrics thing, you will gain back your Seller Protections and the ability to refund a discounted amount to buyers as needed.

---

I'm a bit confused by this thread, but would Free Returns actually help him?

Please correct me if I missed something. Wasn't a part of the issue the OP mentioned that they claim Free Returns also does not allow you partial refunds anymore unless you are TRS as well? 

---

No.

There is a set of protections that are offered to sellers with Free Returns.  You can be a seller of any size or level and have Free Returns if you choose.

There is a set of protections that are offered to TRS member with at least a 30 day return policy of some kind [it does NOT have to be Free returns] that became effective October 1st.

Those are two separate sets of protections.  Two different ways to obtain them.  The TRS protections are more extensive than the ones for Free Returns.

Since the OP has had the unfortunate issue of falling prey to the Service Metrics, they lost the ability to have any seller protections offered for either of the areas I described above for any category they sell in.  

So while the penalty fees only apply in the category in which the rated Very High in the service metrics, they lose their Seller protection in the two areas I described above in ALL categories they sell in.

---

Thanks. That's what I thought.

Then I'm a bit confused by the comments these cases:

"And we are no longer protected by EBAY SELLER PROTECTION even though we offering free return. "

"Yes, based on the new Seller protection policy, it will no longer able to refund 50% refund or feedback remove even though you offered a free return. "

It sounds as if someone at eBay might not have a valid understanding that these are separate policies and is giving selllers misinformation.

[mam98031]

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@zamo-zuan wrote:

---

@mam98031 wrote:

---

@zamo-zuan wrote:

---

@mam98031 wrote:

---

@m2-racing wrote:
mam98031,

Yes, based on the new Seller protection policy, it will no longer able to refund 50% refund or feedback remove even though you offered a free return. All of the seller protections will be removed if one of the category has "VERY HIGH" rated. It's not making any senses for sellers who offered a free return anymore.

We got more returns than before after opted in to FREE RETURN. Buyers will open a return to INADs reason even though they don't like it.

---

If having Free Returns is not cost effective for you, switch to 30 day returns with buyer pays shipping.  

Once you are out of the woods on this Service Metrics thing, you will gain back your Seller Protections and the ability to refund a discounted amount to buyers as needed.

---

I'm a bit confused by this thread, but would Free Returns actually help him?

Please correct me if I missed something. Wasn't a part of the issue the OP mentioned that they claim Free Returns also does not allow you partial refunds anymore unless you are TRS as well? 

---

No.

There is a set of protections that are offered to sellers with Free Returns.  You can be a seller of any size or level and have Free Returns if you choose.

There is a set of protections that are offered to TRS member with at least a 30 day return policy of some kind [it does NOT have to be Free returns] that became effective October 1st.

Those are two separate sets of protections.  Two different ways to obtain them.  The TRS protections are more extensive than the ones for Free Returns.

Since the OP has had the unfortunate issue of falling prey to the Service Metrics, they lost the ability to have any seller protections offered for either of the areas I described above for any category they sell in.  

So while the penalty fees only apply in the category in which the rated Very High in the service metrics, they lose their Seller protection in the two areas I described above in ALL categories they sell in.

---

Thanks. That's what I thought.

Then I'm a bit confused by the comments these cases:

"And we are no longer protected by EBAY SELLER PROTECTION even though we offering free return. "

"Yes, based on the new Seller protection policy, it will no longer able to refund 50% refund or feedback remove even though you offered a free return. "

It sounds as if someone at eBay might not have a valid understanding that these are separate policies and is giving selllers misinformation.

---

As I previously explained there are specific seller protections offered to those that have Free Returns.  If you fall into the Very High range in any one category of the Service metrics, you lose those protections on ALL your listings.

The up to 50% reduction in refunds is one of the options allowed in Free Returns, it is also one of the perks in the October 1st seller protections for TRS members.  Both of which go on hold if a seller falls into the Very High range in any one category in the Service Metrics.  You lose the ability to do this while you are in the Very High range.

[jdm-bestboy]

After viewing the new service metrics policy, I've got a chance to talked to eBay representative regarding this.

So basically what happens is that the Free return policy protection does not apply to sellers anymore if sellers are rated "very high" in ANY category; until your rating in service metrics falls below "very high". That being said, it does not matter if you have 30,000 orders and low service metrics rating on one category, if you are have 600 orders and receive lets say 12 cases against you, you will have no free return policy meaning feedback will not be removed and partial refund can not be made.

What being worse is that remorse cases will be calculated in the service metrics and there's no way eBay will be able to appeal it. It means that even the tracking numbers show packages being delivered for INR cases or buyers demanding for items/ services not listed in the listings for INAD cases will also go against your account. 

Thinking about getting out of Free return? In order to be top rated seller and be eligible for the 10% discount for top rated sellers, sellers must provide 30-day free return. 

So the only thing sellers can do is to report buyers and hope they get punished or remove the items in categories that falls to "very high" rating.

I am guessing eBay is making this changes because after a year of publishing Free return policy, they find out how many buyers are abusing the Free return system and how much expense they have for buyers calling in after being refunded partially.

I understand that it is a new policy so I hope some day soon eBay will find a better way or fair way to improve how the service metrics affect sellers; I am guessing more or more sellers will soon see the impact of this policy especially for huge eBay sellers.

[mam98031]

After viewing the new service metrics policy, I've got a chance to talked to eBay representative regarding this.

So basically what happens is that the Free return policy protection does not apply to sellers anymore if sellers are rated "very high" in ANY category; until your rating in service metrics falls below "very high". That being said, it does not matter if you have 30,000 orders and low service metrics rating on one category, if you are have 600 orders and receive lets say 12 cases against you, you will have no free return policy meaning feedback will not be removed and partial refund can not be made.

Yes, which is what I described above.

What being worse is that remorse cases will be calculated in the service metrics and there's no way eBay will be able to appeal it. It means that even the tracking numbers show packages being delivered for INR cases or buyers demanding for items/ services not listed in the listings for INAD cases will also go against your account. 

Only if they are incorrectly filed.  If it is a properly filed Buyer's remorse request, it does not count in the Service Metrics under any circumstance.

Thinking about getting out of Free return? In order to be top rated seller and be eligible for the 10% discount for top rated sellers, sellers must provide 30-day free return. 

Not exactly.  You do NOT have to offer Free Returns to be TRS.  You can do that with a No Return policy if you want to.  But you are correct if you want any of your listings to be TRS+ / discount available, you must offer Free Returns and 0-1 day handling time.

So the only thing sellers can do is to report buyers and hope they get punished or remove the items in categories that falls to "very high" rating.

I am guessing eBay is making this changes because after a year of publishing Free return policy, they find out how many buyers are abusing the Free return system and how much expense they have for buyers calling in after being refunded partially.

Personally I don't think this has anything to do with it.  For this to matter, then lots and lots of sellers would have to be falling in to the Very High range in the Service metrics and I don't know that to be correct.  I of course haven't seen any published numbers on this, but we rarely have a thread on the subject by an affected seller.

[dasarock]

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@mam98031 wrote:

After viewing the new service metrics policy, I've got a chance to talked to eBay representative regarding this.

So basically what happens is that the Free return policy protection does not apply to sellers anymore if sellers are rated "very high" in ANY category; until your rating in service metrics falls below "very high". That being said, it does not matter if you have 30,000 orders and low service metrics rating on one category, if you are have 600 orders and receive lets say 12 cases against you, you will have no free return policy meaning feedback will not be removed and partial refund can not be made.

Yes, which is what I described above.

What being worse is that remorse cases will be calculated in the service metrics and there's no way eBay will be able to appeal it. It means that even the tracking numbers show packages being delivered for INR cases or buyers demanding for items/ services not listed in the listings for INAD cases will also go against your account. 

Only if they are incorrectly filed.  If it is a properly filed Buyer's remorse request, it does not count in the Service Metrics under any circumstance.

Thinking about getting out of Free return? In order to be top rated seller and be eligible for the 10% discount for top rated sellers, sellers must provide 30-day free return. 

Not exactly.  You do NOT have to offer Free Returns to be TRS.  You can do that with a No Return policy if you want to.  But you are correct if you want any of your listings to be TRS+ / discount available, you must offer Free Returns and 0-1 day handling time.

So the only thing sellers can do is to report buyers and hope they get punished or remove the items in categories that falls to "very high" rating.

I am guessing eBay is making this changes because after a year of publishing Free return policy, they find out how many buyers are abusing the Free return system and how much expense they have for buyers calling in after being refunded partially.

Personally I don't think this has anything to do with it.  For this to matter, then lots and lots of sellers would have to be falling in to the Very High range in the Service metrics and I don't know that to be correct.  I of course haven't seen any published numbers on this, but we rarely have a thread on the subject by an affected seller.

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and all of this is exasperated by fewer sales causing higher rates, both in stats and metrics which will take at least a year to clear, while ebay garners the higher 5% add on fee from sellers, and believe me this is pushing sellers into higher numbers.

[Anonymous]

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@brettyg599 wrote:

So it sounds too complicated to you to have a peer group for 2nd hand items, 1 for new items, one for international, 1 for domestic only, but not too complicated to make thousands of peer groups and having a system pair sellers together?

@Anonymous 

im sorry trinton but your job to represent eBay is coming across very challenging to me.  How could a model you just outlined not be better than these thousands of peer groups we currently have.

also if this rule was to protect new sellers let’s talk about some other policy’s that directly contradict that eBay does that.  In a different thread posted today a seller got her first feedback as negative and is restricted.  So first one negative couldn’t be bad luck as you stated but 11 out of 100 could be? That makes no sense.

i mean this with no offense because this is your job but did you actually talk to the team/higher up that created these peer groups and rules or are you just inferring why the rules are the way they are?  I don’t want your best guess, I want the real answer.  If you are not privy to that just answer back posts with honestly I don’t know but here is my opinion.  

Like I stated that’s not to be taken offensively I just want to know if eBay actually gives you the information and you got it from those that created peer groups, or if you are just looking at the policy’s and using your best judgment.

not just me but almost every seller does not like the peer groups mainly because there is no information given about them. All we want is transparency and I think we deserve that.  Can you Atleast pass on the feedback that sellers want some kind of facts about their peer group even if you don’t include any names of sellers.

also you never got back to me on where that marketing I got came from and why the numbers didn’t match what explore.ebay had for the products.

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Hi @brettyg599, the example I provided is a description of the numerous peer groups that currently exist. I apologize if it somehow came across as if I were describing a different system than the one you are asking about that is currently in place. The details you are looking for are not something that can be provided to you - the information I've shared here is an attempt to explain what is already available for review on eBay in different words and examples. The teams related to Service Metrics and Peer Group calculations are well aware of the feedback you and other sellers have provided, as this is a topic we've addressed in the past within the Community. I can only reiterate that no additional details will be provided. I will continue to share the information I'm available share with you on future topics. 

As for your other question, I have not updated you on the thread where we discussed this because I do not have an update to provide. Once there is more information to share, I will be happy to post to the other thread.

[mam98031]

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@dasarock wrote:

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@mam98031 wrote:

After viewing the new service metrics policy, I've got a chance to talked to eBay representative regarding this.

So basically what happens is that the Free return policy protection does not apply to sellers anymore if sellers are rated "very high" in ANY category; until your rating in service metrics falls below "very high". That being said, it does not matter if you have 30,000 orders and low service metrics rating on one category, if you are have 600 orders and receive lets say 12 cases against you, you will have no free return policy meaning feedback will not be removed and partial refund can not be made.

Yes, which is what I described above.

What being worse is that remorse cases will be calculated in the service metrics and there's no way eBay will be able to appeal it. It means that even the tracking numbers show packages being delivered for INR cases or buyers demanding for items/ services not listed in the listings for INAD cases will also go against your account. 

Only if they are incorrectly filed.  If it is a properly filed Buyer's remorse request, it does not count in the Service Metrics under any circumstance.

Thinking about getting out of Free return? In order to be top rated seller and be eligible for the 10% discount for top rated sellers, sellers must provide 30-day free return. 

Not exactly.  You do NOT have to offer Free Returns to be TRS.  You can do that with a No Return policy if you want to.  But you are correct if you want any of your listings to be TRS+ / discount available, you must offer Free Returns and 0-1 day handling time.

So the only thing sellers can do is to report buyers and hope they get punished or remove the items in categories that falls to "very high" rating.

I am guessing eBay is making this changes because after a year of publishing Free return policy, they find out how many buyers are abusing the Free return system and how much expense they have for buyers calling in after being refunded partially.

Personally I don't think this has anything to do with it.  For this to matter, then lots and lots of sellers would have to be falling in to the Very High range in the Service metrics and I don't know that to be correct.  I of course haven't seen any published numbers on this, but we rarely have a thread on the subject by an affected seller.

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and all of this is exasperated by fewer sales causing higher rates, both in stats and metrics which will take at least a year to clear, while ebay garners the higher 5% add on fee from sellers, and believe me this is pushing sellers into higher numbers.

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We just disagree, no big deal.  My experience is just not matching up with yours.  Fewer sales are not causing higher rates for me in stats or in the Service Metrics.  I do hope things improve for you very soon.