International buyers constantly asking for customs fraud

[michael_atw]

This has been happening since I began but it is constant now.  Even worse, they use it is a bargaining tool to negotiate the sale.  Most of them used to only ask, now they basically demand that in order to sell, it has to be done.  I've had a few holler at me when they received the item because I didn't declare what they wanted me to (after they bought).  They leave offers with customs fraud contingencies.  Today I had a guy try to negotiate I declare a $15 value, after asking my "best price" (without making an offer), on a $175 item.

It's one of the most offensive things I've ever dealt with and I'm sick of it.  I don't know what to do at this point but constantly tell them off. 

[partial*eclipse]

I gave up all international shipping about 10 years ago when I got tired of this type of fraud demand.  The last straw was a week in which TWO Canadian bueyrs threatened to leave negative feedback if I didn't.  And this was back in the days when I couldhave ngged them right back!  

I know I'm giving up some potential sales and bidders, but the tradeoff in aggravation is worth it to me.  I have more time and energy for listing items and taking care of domestic shipping and customers.

[michael_atw]

My INTL sales are about 35-40% of revenue right now.  And they have consistently been for years.  The good news is it's not everyone; but the density of those who try to bargain their tax fraud is amazing.   

[dhbookds]

You don't specify international shipping and invite, in your description, international customers to contact you about shipping. 

Some may read that as an invitation to "deal" on the customs form, and they don't get the usual Ebay instruction about import duties.

I would put in the listings the old disclaimer about "Import Duties are the responsibility of the Buyer and we cannot change the actual selling price on the customs form".........that might stop at least some of it........

[luckythewinner]

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@michael_atw wrote:

It's one of the most offensive things I've ever dealt with

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Wouldn't even be in the top 500 in my list of offensive things I've dealt with 🙂

[good.junque]

     I don't find the request to be offensive.  I just reply politely that sorry, I can't do that.  There are many buyers who have various ways of trying to reduce the cost of an item and some of them see not having to pay the customs duty as one of the ways.   

     Over the years, I've done quite a bit of selling at fleamarkets.  Some folks just don't buy without doing some wheeling and dealing before making a purchase.   EBay used to advertise that they were the largest fleamarket in the world.

Laurie

[tunicaslot]

Wheeling and dealing and asking someone or rather demanding someone commit fraud are 2 different things. Canadian buyers are always complaining about so many of us being in GSP - but this is exactly why we are in it - I don't want to deal with these types of people.

Some may not have a conscience - I do.

[good.junque]

Tunicaslot, I've not had anything listed at eBay for a long time now.  I've never used GSP.  Does GSP have any way of telling if a shipment to Canada is a purchase or a gift?  Their customs duty is not the same amount for a gift as it is for a purchase.

Laurie

[sg51]

It's one of the most offensive things I've ever dealt with and I'm sick of it. 

It seems you're choosing to run your business in a stressful way.

Look to yourself for the answers.  Not other people.

[postingid2017]

I feel your pain, which is why I made an executive decision not to ship internationally anymore.  It is very annoying and I am at the point in my life that I just don't want to deal with some things 😞  I didn't like doing it, but for my own peace of mind I said, "just stop international shipping."  If the buyer wants it, just find a reshipper.  It is not only the customs fraud but the shipping cost complaints too 😞  

[tunicaslot]

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@good.junque wrote:

Tunicaslot, I've not had anything listed at eBay for a long time now.  I've never used GSP.  Does GSP have any way of telling if a shipment to Canada is a purchase or a gift?  Their customs duty is not the same amount for a gift as it is for a purchase.

Laurie

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Laurie - I don't have an answer to your question as I've never had a canadian buyer - most GSP items I've sent out go to Russia or South American so I have no idea about the customs duties - sorry!

[odditiesandantiquities1]

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@tunicaslot wrote:

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@good.junque wrote:

Tunicaslot, I've not had anything listed at eBay for a long time now.  I've never used GSP.  Does GSP have any way of telling if a shipment to Canada is a purchase or a gift?  Their customs duty is not the same amount for a gift as it is for a purchase.

Laurie

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Laurie - I don't have an answer to your question as I've never had a canadian buyer - most GSP items I've sent out go to Russia or South American so I have no idea about the customs duties - sorry!

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I have had a few Canadian buyers who were forced to pay GST  (13% in Ontario) plus a $9.95 surcharge on top what they already paid throught the GSP program. One said it took forever to get their money back.  

[good.junque]

     Well, Odditie etc., that reinforces my thinking that if I do get off my duff and start listing again  I'll certainly not use GSP.   Thanks for letting me know that.  I like our good neighbors of the north. 

     Thanks, too, to Tunicaslot, for your reply as well.  Have you gotten any Canadians asking if you use GSP or not?  I would think that the word would have gone around pretty fast among Canadians as to what's happening with that.

Laurie

[odditiesandantiquities1]

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@good.junque wrote:

     Well, Odditie etc., that reinforces my thinking that if I do get off my duff and start listing again  I'll certainly not use GSP.   Thanks for letting me know that.  I like our good neighbors of the north. 

     Thanks, too, to Tunicaslot, for your reply as well.  Have you gotten any Canadians asking if you use GSP or not?  I would think that the word would have gone around pretty fast among Canadians as to what's happening with that.

Laurie

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We live only 30 minutes from the Canadian border. For our customers to the North, we go into Ontario for the day and ship from there., so I am lucky to have quite a few reliable customers from Canada. 

Word does get around. The gift no longer applies to anything over $50 and if they want to be a pain in the neck, and if you are crossing the border back into Ontario (Canadian residents that is) they will even tax you on a $15 item, depending on how sour the border guards feel that day. They are so miserable at that crossing. 

[gramophone-georg]

We've been down this road many times before in this forum. Let's clear up a very important misonception.

Make no mistake. Fibbing on Customs forms IS fraud. However, the way it works in international commerce law agreed to by all parties is that the person filling out the form is acting as a proxy for the importer of record, and the importer of record is the BUYER.

Let that sink in. You, the seller, are acting as a PROXY for the buyer. Therefore, if the buyer demands you falsify a value and they catch it, guess who they go after? The BUYER, or importer of record. Technically if it ever goes that far all you'd need would be the message or email from your buyer demanding you alter the price and you'd be off the hook.

There have been very few cases of any prosecution for custom documentation fraud in Canada and Europe, and in every case they slapped the buyer because of an inordinate amount of "gifts" soming in. It has to be a LOT, too. 

There was even one case years ago when supposedly a buyer in the Netherlands (if I recall correctly) got fined because an eBay seller took it upon himself to declare a parcel as a gift. That incident couldn't have possibly been correct by itself, though- there must have been lots of 'gifts' arriving before that to get the attention of the postal authorities.

Yes, I have evidence to back this up as we used to debate it ad nauseum some years back, but it's all on my old computer that crashed. If you google the case law for "importer of record" and customs form proxy you'll find it though. I will try later when I'm done with work.

In the end, every seller should do what their conscience tells them, but if you have a demanding buyer and you really need the sale, at least you can rest assured that YOU won't be getting hauled off to the chain gang over it. If anyone will, it's the buyer. After all, you're not cheating YOUR country out of anything... so they're not going to care.