eBay

alternative_lab_source · ‎12-14-2023

This is an update of my previous post. Check out the original post to see the full details of what happened earlier (eBay took the side of the buyer again). Here is the short version of the story. I sold a laboratory vacuum pump for $1000, the buyer claimed that he received some books, which is obviously **bleep**. Despite all the evidence I provided to prove that I sent the pump, Bay ruled in favor of the buyer, took my money of about $1050, and refunded the buyer.

Here is the update as to how I got my money back.

After all the appeals through normal means failed (chat, email with eBay reps, etc.), I started preparing a small claim lawsuit against eBay. I first filed a police report because I believed that the buyer was committing fraud. Police came and did some recording. They were frank that they would not do any actual investigation but provided a case number, which is good enough for me. I then sent a Notice of Dispute letter to eBay's litigation department. This is a procedure that you need to complete before actually suing eBay, based on my understanding of the eBay police documents. After a month of the delivery of the letter, I did not hear from eBay and filed a claim at my local small claim court earlier this week. Today, I received a full refund from eBay. It is not because of my small claim lawsuit, since my local court probably hasn't received the application yet, but as a response to my Notice of Dispute letter. They just moved too slowly.

Here is my takeaway from this experience. I agree with most sellers's belief that eBay almost always rules in favor of the buyer, but sellers shouldn't give up. In my case, the threat of a lawsuit is enough pressure for eBay to take it seriously. I honestly don't think eBay could win in court, and they probably know it too, so settling outside of the court was probably a business decision. They have to hire a lawyer, and may still lose, then pay the refund if this goes to court. From my experience dealing with various businesses in disputes where they clearly did something wrong, the business often adopts the tactic of ignoring you and hoping that you give up. Honestly, it is not a bad strategy because more often than not, we give up and the business saves money. So it is all business/financial decisions, ruling in favor of the buyer initially or refunding me later. If we want to get our money back, make it so that it makes no business sense for eBay to keep ignoring us. Sure, pursuing takes a lot of time, which is money for any business; I spent a lot of time in this case already. So it is your decision whether your loss is worth the time. I hope that at least my case gives you some confidence that you could win in the end.

Hope this helps, and hopefully, as more sellers fight for their rights, we can finally get eBay to reevaluate their "buyers always win" practice.

vintagecraze50 · ‎12-14-2023

Right, the lawsuit part really means nothing. You would never win something like that with a company such as this. What happened is that after they looked at the due diligence of the seller in reporting the issue, they most likely did a courtesy refund for this case. The seller did their part to dispute the case.

vintagecraze50 · ‎12-14-2023

Right. Do not go throwing lawsuits at ebay.

b4b4b4b · ‎12-14-2023

Good for you ! Congratulations on getting your $1050 back and not giving up !

Tammy

New Hampshire

stephenmorgan · ‎12-14-2023

Congratulations I knew you had a good chance of winning.

😊

albertabrightalberta · ‎12-14-2023

@alternative_lab_source wrote:
I don't think there is anything in the agreement saying " I agree not to engage in litigation against eBay". My understanding is that we only agree not to file a class action lawsuit against eBay.

Here's the UA:

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/member-behaviour-policies/user-agreement?id=4259

See

18. Legal Disputes

PLEASE READ THIS SECTION CAREFULLY. IT AFFECTS YOUR RIGHTS AND WILL HAVE A SUBSTANTIAL IMPACT ON HOW CLAIMS YOU AND EBAY HAVE AGAINST EACH OTHER ARE RESOLVED.

In this Legal Disputes section, the term "related third parties" includes your and eBay's respective affiliates, subsidiaries, parent companies, predecessors, successors, assigns, as well as your, eBay's, and these entities' respective employees and agents.

You and eBay each agree that any and all claims or disputes at law or equity that has arisen, or may arise, between you and eBay (or any related third parties) that relate in any way to or arise out of this or previous versions of this User Agreement, your use of or access to the Services, the actions of eBay or its agents, or any products or services sold, offered, or purchased through the Services, will be resolved in accordance with the provisions set forth in this Legal Disputes section.

Hmmm. This next section is interesting and I'm not sure I'd previously read it in full.

Exemption - Small Claims Court Claims
Notwithstanding the parties' agreement to resolve all disputes through arbitration, either party may seek relief in a small claims court for disputes or claims within the scope of that court's jurisdiction and on an individual (non-class) basis only. If a party initiates an arbitration asserting a claim that falls within the jurisdiction of a small claims court, the other party may, in its discretion, require that the arbitration demand be withdrawn and that the claim be filed in small claims court.
Any dispute about whether a claim falls within any given small claims court's jurisdiction will be resolved by that court, not by an arbitrator. In the event of any such jurisdictional dispute, the arbitration proceeding will remain closed unless and until the small claims court issues a decision that the claim should proceed in arbitration.

albertabrightalberta
Volunteer Community Mentor

gurlcat · ‎12-14-2023

Fascinating, thanks for finding that.

alternative_lab_source · ‎12-15-2023

I read this part, as well as the entire agreement before making the decision to sue eBay. Obviously I am not a lawyer and I lack the acumen to fully understand the paragraph. My understanding is that we can sue in small claim court, but we cannot file a class action lawsuit. I suspect that any agreement with a private company that bans the signer from suing is in itself illegal.
Secondly, the nature of the dispute in my case is not any ordinary buyer-seller disagreement; what we accused of each other is fraud. If you read the seller’s and buyer’s right in the eBay policy, there is no mentioning of fraud, rightfully so because eBay has no right to make a verdict in a civil case, which they did in this case by ruling in favor of the buyer. This is why I was confident that I could go to court and I could win.

Feel free to share your thoughts and I think this discussion is very helpful. A lot of sellers here are under the impression that they cannot sue eBay no matter what.

alternative_lab_source · ‎12-15-2023

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Why do you think that eBay could dismiss a legal case?

dbfolks166mt · ‎12-15-2023

So this happened despite the fact that part of the agreement that every eBay seller signs says something like "I agree not to engage in litigation against eBay"? Interesting.

That supposed agreement is in essence a form of a contract and one of the elements of a binding contract is it has to be legal. You cannot have a binding contract if it attempts to override existing laws which is why the term put a contract out on somebody is a misnomer. EBay has and is sued all the time some cases they win some they loose.

dbfolks166mt · ‎12-15-2023

Congrats on a refund. However, in the under agreement you agree to abide to when using the site, you agree to binding arbitration in California. Just a heads up that they would have had your suit dismissed & moved to that forum.

Not necessarily the user agreement has to be legal to be valid and under US law you can pretty much sue anybody for anything. EBay has been sued countless times including a number of class action lawsuits. They have won a few and lost a few but the bottom line is that user agreement will seldom stand up against the legal system.

Be aware as well - just the receipt of that suit does violate the user terms & they could in response just terminate your user account. Using ebay is not a right, but a privledge under current law.

Be sure to keep that in mind.

Nothing to violate if the user agreement is invalid. While they can terminate your account if they wish there are always other options and that would be eBay cutting off their nose to spite their face so to speak, but they seem to do that a lot. While businesses do have the right to refuse service under current law it is limited depending on the reason for the refusal. Reprisal may push the limit but that would be for the courts to determine.

farmalljr · ‎12-15-2023

You ARE correct. You CAN sue eBay on an individual basis, NOT on a class action basis. People have before, and will likely continue to.

eBay also has an arbitration process, which it allows sellers to use as an option, but there is reports that they ignore those requests for arbitration because eBay has to be the one to pony up the fee to the arbitrators.

Sooner or later, my bet is eBay gets themselves in some legal hot water over not following their own policy/rules, and some judge may consider the user agreement null and void, opening them up to class action suits. You must make good on your end of the contract for it to be valid. If you break your own contract, it can easily be ruled as invalid, since you are not holding up your own end of the contract.

retro_entertainment_collectibles · ‎12-15-2023

eBay's user agreement does not trump law. Its that simple, no websites user agreement trumps law nor can they discriminate against folks using the legal assets that exist. Otherwise you might see, "Any communication to authorities is a breach of terms of services."

You agree in the terms of services to afford eBay arbitration which they did finding in favor of the buyer in this instance. That by no means is finality especially if law(s) which again trumps any EULA in the land may have been broken.

Buyers can chargeback, completely avoiding arbitration prior to action.

That all said, as others have also stated eBay reserves right to terminate any account they so choose as does Facebook or any other website. That too can be challenged, anything can be challenged as law trumps all else.

Now, that said, this happen to be one of things at stake in our coming general election. The weaponization of our legal system something common in third world countries where upheavals and strife exist. In said nations said weaponization flows downwards and we've not really seen this here since the days of the Coal Mines, Robber Barons (Railroads), early last textiles and such. That is to say weaponization of law from high governmental authority at either State or Federal levels. Historically in America (and others!) said weaponization starts within government infighting and it tends ALWAYS look just as we are seeing.

That is to say, the entities who care wish to weaponize law in favor of their interests are in fact those who make accusation that law is being weaponized against them. Its the fuel of the fire not at all different from the family spats whereby the accused is in all reality also an accuser doing so to deflect and further their motivative goals.

I wrote a poem about it years ago:

We think of ourselves free in our hearts practiced and learned programmed we start.

Dream of a world with peace of mind whilst Kings and Queens weave greedy design.

Quickly they'll cloak a deceptive deed quote lie and reason expecting belief.

In tactful riddles the tales are unfurled villain's created to pacify a world.

The trick of the tale is the cheat in the game answer question not asked it is easily played.

Mislead the curious reinforce the deceived plunder dreams of a future now to pretend to grieve.

I've the answer to quell such evil plans people must rise spread word across all lands.

With a new era of kindness Gods glory shall ascend for I can call you brother and you can call me friend.

stainlessenginecovers · ‎12-15-2023

@alternative_lab_source wrote:
Sure, $1100 lawsuit is not going to scare a $7B company, but it is bad business, and no business gets to that size by consistently making bad business decisions.

@alternative_lab_source

and NOT paying someone on a 'return' as the system is set up is NOT bad business. It's JUST the way it works here. Buyers are king (as they should be and are in just about every retail business)

alternative_lab_source · ‎12-15-2023

I agree with what you said, and it actually echoes what I said in my original post, " From my experience dealing with various businesses in disputes where they clearly did something wrong, the business often adopts the tactic of ignoring you and hoping that you give up. Honestly, it is not a bad strategy because, more often than not, we give up, and the business saves money."

BUT, It is not bad business until they face a serious threat of a loss in a lawsuit.

Buyers are kings, as they should be. All platforms suck up to their buyers. I have absolutely no problem with eBay doing it, just don't do it at my expense.

isaiah53-57 · ‎12-15-2023

@alternative_lab_source wrote:
Sure, $1100 lawsuit is not going to scare a $7B company, but it is bad business, and no business gets to that size by consistently making bad business decisions.

In my opinion, you are giving credit where credit is so very undeserved - This venue was created as a HOBBY for extra cash by Pierre Omidyar - It grew, more so, out of filling the tremendous vacuum for a venue of this nature and much less because of any imaginative development, creative marketing or business decision-making (other than a series of acquisitions to better fill that vacuum) - In other words, it was a no-brainer...No bad decisions could have stopped this venue(or one like it) from becoming what it quickly became...The problem would be maintaining it...

This company COULD and SHOULD be untouchable, kinda like Amazon, who ran their entire business model on creative business decisions that focused on long term vision, even though they were taking huge losses at times - They stuck with it - While the people at ebay that had the golden egg handed to them? They squandered it, putting short-sighted, short-term gain strategies far above creative visions of growth and future venue usability. Do you know what their market share is compared to back in 2005 or 2011? Its not pretty...They got mired in this type of business decision-making early on and no Johnny-Come-Lately has been bold or creative enough to pull them out of it - Could be the boardroom keeps their hands tied and always will... but I dont want to give any one of them the benefit of the doubt when they already had/have a golden parachute...

What should have been cultivated into a paradise of easy and fair transfer of goods has become a crumbling place of contention between seller and buyer, seller and seller, seller and company, buyer and company, company and market...