Fraudulent buyer UPDATE

[shoppingisfun.x]

So eBay has completely let me down.

A rundown, eBay refunded the buyer on December 26th when I opened my last thread where my PayPal went negative. My appeal was denied despite sufficient evidence and even a police report against the buyer. 

A couple days ago the buyer opened another case on PAYPAL and then last night ebay DEBITED ME AGAIN(!!)??! To refund the buyer. 

basically the buyer got two refunds and now wants a third one.

Original transaction refunded on December 26th caused my paypal account to go negative 

 
chargeback from buyer filed on saturday

and a refund to the buyer (again) from eBay last night

AND to top it all off now eBay is telling me I can’t sell anything anymore. Even though the buyer was the one trying to scam me. Now the buyer has TWO REFUNDS

AND MY BAG

and obviously they got greedy and wanted a third one from PayPal. Yet I am the one who is being punished unfairly. I have NEVER had any case opened against me (or even opened any kind of case against someone) in 10 years of buying and occasionally selling on eBay. 

So I basically lost nearly $8000 and a $6000 bag. 

I called PayPal and they told me it’s an eBay problem, I called eBay and they told me it’s a PayPal problem.

Completely unfair despite no history of claims and disputes opened against me, yet the buyer had abused this system before and eBay ADMITTED that! 
but they said there’s nothing they can do.

This can not be legal.

So what are my options here? I am livid. 

[abfabvintage]

@iaintdoingit 

either they were making a joke, or meant to say seller?

[mam98031]

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@rschissler wrote:

The fact that you are not allowed to sell anymore, makes me wonder about the authenticity of the bag?  I know there were questions about this on the last thread, but those posts got deleted by the mods.

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Whether or not the bag was authentic can't have anything to do with this.  Nothing.  This is and was an INR claim.  The only matter in question for winning or losing an INR is was the item received.  

If the buyer wanted to or needed to claim it wasn't authentic, then the OP would not have lost the INR because the buyer would have to admit they had the purse, which means it was delivered.  The buyer didn't file an INAD, which is what they would have to file to claim it wasn't authentic.  

This whole dramatic experience is about an INR and has NOTHING to do with the speculation that it was a fake bag.  Whether it was or not, I have no idea.  I just know it doesn't play any part in the processing and findings of an INR.

@rschissler 

[mam98031]

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@thevintagesilvershop wrote:

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@rschissler wrote:

The fact that you are not allowed to sell anymore, makes me wonder about the authenticity of the bag?  I know there were questions about this on the last thread, but those posts got deleted by the mods.

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Anyone notice the OP has sold 2 similar bags in the last 30 days or so?

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@thevintagesilvershop 

Different size bags if I remember correctly.

[mam98031]

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@abfabvintage wrote:

@iaintdoingit 

i agree...and who is to say even tho this is an INR case, who knows if someone (not the buyer) may have reported it to someone that no matter the INR, the bag is a fake...which i do not believe it was...what i want to know, where is the bag?

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You can't claim a fake in an INR.  It just isn't possible.  An INR is simply was the item received or wasn't it.  The emails from Ebay regarding BOTH refunds were about the original INR.  If the buyer is claiming that it is a fake, then they would have LOST the INR case as they would have to of received the item to now claim a INAD. 

And since they were already refunded on the INR, what would the point be?  The OP has an email from the buyer stating that they had received the refund.  Maybe the buyer is wrong, maybe they didn't receive it, IDK, but there is an email stating they did from the buyer.  

Now you can file an INAD after you have filed an INR.  But there is no need to file one if you won the INR and have been refunded.  What purpose would that serve?

[style.by.me29]

You do realize that we haven’t heard from the buyer’s side of the story?

We dont know what kind of information the buyer provided eBay, they could’ve just claimed it never got to them. We all know ebay favors buyers

From what it looks like the buyer provided false information to eBay to get their refund and it worked 

its happened time and time again

[style.by.me29]

I meant towards buyers not against, sorry! Haha

[rschissler]

Ok, I can accept that. It just seems odd that an INR would cause a seller to lose their selling privileges.

[sg51]

 It just seems odd that an INR would cause a seller to lose their selling privileges.

In fact, it seems so odd that that's probably not a good summary of what happened.

[wastingtime101]

--General Reply--

This post is all speculation but this is what I think may have happened:

• The buyer lost the INR because of one of the below possible reasons:
  
  • The original mis-delivery with signature supersedes any subsequent deliveries to another correct address regardless of a second signature (most likely scenario in my opinion)
  • The package was mis-delivered and the INR claim was filed before it was re-delivered to the correct address - a timing issue with the claim and the delivery
  • The package was never delivered to the correct address and the buyer's neighbor brought them the package
  • The package was re-delivered but there was no signature confirmation the second time
  • There was no signature confirmation obtained by USPS at all
  • The seller altered the shipping address at the buyer's request (least likely scenario)

• The seller is out two refunds possibly because:
  • Their e-check did not clear by eBay's deadline.
    • If this happened eBay would have alerted the seller they were initiating a refund and would bill the seller.
    • The seller either missed or didn't understand this message because they were stressed and not thinking clearly.
    • If the seller did get this message they could have called their bank and requested to cancel the pending e-check since eBay was initiating a refund they would be billed for.
    • No action was taken by the seller so refunds went through both sources and the seller is now in a(nother) difficult situation

I think the delivery issue could have been an unfortunate/unlucky situation causing the seller to lose this one - it may or may not have had anything to do with something the seller did. It could have been the luck of the draw.

I think the double refund is something the seller had some control over but was too frantic and missed or didn't understand they could have taken preventative action. We are not privy to all of the messages and communication from eBay to the seller so posters could only advise on what the OP shared - not on what they didn't.

At this point all the seller can do is work with PayPal, their bank, eBay and their credit card to try and sort out the financial aspect. Personally, I would start with PayPal and get the buyer's credit card chargeback immediately closed since the buyer has already been refunded.

After that I would request to speak with someone in PayPal's escalation department (or whatever they call it) to discuss the buyer receiving 2 refunds and find out if PayPal could reverse the refund or if the seller had to go through their bank or another avenue.

I think it's better to start with PayPal and the bank because eBay cannot pull the refund from the buyer. The only thing eBay can do is issue a courtesy refund to the seller and I don't see them doing that here since the seller lost the case and was suspended (related or not doesn't matter). PayPal or the buyer's bank may have the ability to reverse the charge with evidence that the buyer already got a refund from eBay.

I would not have filed a credit card chargeback on the eBay invoice charge unless it was the absolute last resort.

The higher value the claim the more important it is to stay calm, level-headed, and review every single message in detail. Know your dates, deadlines and process. Time is better spent doing this than combating strangers on the internet in a heated and emotional exchange. Come here for advice, yes - but don't get sidetracked when you have bigger issues to worry about. That may be easier said than done for many people, but I think it's a good goal to strive for.

My opinion - take it with a grain of salt.

Good luck to the OP. I hope you can sort out the financial end of this with minimal hassle.

[albertabrightalberta]

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@wastingtime101 wrote:

• The seller is out two refunds possibly because:
  • • If the seller did get this message they could have called their bank and requested to cancel the pending e-check since eBay was initiating a refund they would be billed for.

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Just want to comment on this last possibility. 

Once a transfer of any type is started, it can't be canceled. 

I ran into this with my own account a few months ago. Within minutes of requesting a transfer from PP to my bank, I wanted the money back in order to issue a refund to a buyer without having to wait for an echeck transfer. 

I called Paypal and was told they can't do anything once the process is started. The refund would have to go through as an echeck.

I then called my bank and was told the same thing. They can't refuse the transfer. 

So even if the OP/seller tried to cancel the pending echeck wouldn't have been possible.

[pvcliff]

General reply. What we have here is what I call an opportunistic scammer. Didn't set out to steal the bag (at least not in the way it went down). You ever see the videos of a city bus accident where lowlifes walking by jump on the bus so they can claim injury? That's what happened here.  Buyer saw that the purse was misdelivered and took that opportunity to claim she didn't get the purse in the package when it was rerouted. She took advantage when the circumstances gave her an in. Post office is at fault, OP pays the price (and pays only once, I think the money issue will right itself).

[wastingtime101]

That's too bad. I ran into a similar but reversed situation as you and PayPal told me my bank could cancel the e-check. I didn't bother calling my bank because the e-check cleared later that day.

My situation was a buyer refund initiated as an e-check that I wanted to cancel after I had funds in PayPal to refund immediately.

[upgradedendmills]

Your post is clear, concise and factual with what information is available. You are still going to get a few posts from the stubborn defender corps.

[mtgraves7984]

@rschissler 

That is the million dollar question for me... and I asked it way back in Message #23. I'm still waiting.

#23… @mam98031, @dbzxgirlxm
The last thread ended with "This topic is now closed at the request of the OP. Thanks for understanding."

Was there anything in the OP's request that caused the more recent 'stuff'? Or the OP's loss of seller status?
Not to muddy the waters, but geez... are y'all privy to anything that you can share here?

I haven't heard from @mam98031, but the OP's reply (Message #24) made me wince.

#24… Oh no I actually contacted the mods to moderate the thread and remove the unnecessary comments but they ended up locking it instead 

So, @rschissler , was it the Cardinal Rule... 'Don't set the rules when you're playing in my backyard?' (Regarding editing suggestions on eBay's site?)

I've not responded since... the rest of it doesn't affect me. The seller restrictions might, though.

But I still say the whole thing is messed up as a soup sandwich.

@wastingtime101 

[wesk_36]

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@eleanor*rigby wrote:

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@shoppingisfun.x wrote:

I’m more than willing to all the tracking information along with a document (not email) directly from USPS about the delivery if that’ll help at all.

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@shoppingisfun.x 

You've already provided all that to eBay, though, haven't you?

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@shoppingisfun.x wrote:

. . . in the 11 years I’ve been with eBay I have had no claims or disputes opened against me and not one negative feedback and I’m just an occasional buyer/seller I’m not selling a ton of high value stuff everyday??

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None of those factors would be considered in eBay's decision on whether a selling account being should be suspended. A selling account is suspended for something that went wrong (not judging your circumstances).

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1. If delivery and signature confirmation are provided, the seller will be protected.
https://community.ebay.com/t5/Selling/Fraudulent-buyer-UPDATE/m-p/30562448#M1532628

"I can confirm that when we have tracking that proves delivery (or a delivery attempt) prior to eBay being asked to step in, we will close the case in the sellers favor."
https://community.ebay.com/t5/Selling/Fraudulent-buyer-UPDATE/m-p/30562291#M1532573

It appears to me that these statements are saying that there wasn't any delivery and signature confirmation provided, otherwise the seller would be protected. Is that a logical deduction?