First negative feedback in 17 years because buyer retaliated to my fears of scam and PO BOX address

[zdynx]

[Summary of messages communciation at the bottom.]

Well, I just got the first real negative feedback in 17 years for trying to be too careful.  (The prevous and only negative feedback in 2003 was a mistake that the buyer retracted.)

Because ebay (and Paypal) favors buyers over sellers when conflicts arise, sophisticated buyers with intentions to scam use that to their advantage.  Therefore, I'm very paranoid about being a victim of a buying scams.  I'm not a business or PowerSeller so every sale counts.  Having any fraudulent chargebacks would be devastating.

I sold an item for $2774.  After the buyer sent Paypal payment, I noticed that the address was a UPS mailbox.  I'm not totally against shipping something to a PO BOX but as a personal precaution, and especially for something this expensive, I need to talk to the buyer on the phone to verify everything.

(My friend has a UPS mailbox and Chase VISA denied her credit application because she used that address on the application.  Apparently, many financial companies blacklist UPS mailbox addresses because of fraud.  Therefore, I'm not the only one that's wary of them.)

He refused to talk on the phone and insisted I just ship it to him.  The whole thing had too many red flags to me and so I just refunded his Paypal payment and cancelled the transaction.  This angered him enough to leave negative feedback.  Also, since the $285 ebay Final Value Fee is still on my account, I assume he clicked on "didn't agree to cancel" option, which means I still owe ebay $285 for money I don't have!

Is there anything I can do?  I'm more concerned about getting a credit for the $285 than the negative feedback.

I'm also not sure of how to process any lessons learned (if any) here.  Ebay doesn't let you prescreen buyers so once they've paid, you're at the buyer's mercy.  (Arguably, even if the buyer hasn't paid, you're still at their mercy since they can hold you up from relisting the item for 10 days.)  I don't like buyers issuing ultimatums, veiled threats, and bullying to pressure me to make a sale that looks dishonest.  I don't know what to do.  Continually paying FVF for money I don't have because of PayPal refunds is obviously unsustainable.

If you've read the messages, what should I have done differently?  Was I being unreasonable?  Is ebay the wrong venue for this type of high-priced gear?  Have scammers made selling high-dollar items unsafe for modest homeowners like me?  I can't afford fraudulent chargebacks as "cost of doing business" -- because I'm not a Powerseller business that uses other sales to make up for the bad ones.

I just read the recent thread of a seller being scammed out of a $6500 sewing machine here:  https://community.ebay.com/t5/Selling/Victim-of-buyer-fraud/td-p/28471713

What should a seller do to try to prevent a nightmare like that?  Nothing? Is asking for a phone call verification to ship to an address that credit-cards blacklist really unreasonable?  Sure a phone call is not foolproof against scams but it's at least something.  And yes, ebay's policies says buyers have every right to force the seller to ship without extra verification but ebay is not the one suffering the loss of $2800 or $6500 here; it's us. 

Lastly, any suggestions for the text should I put as my response to the negative feedback?  Buyer wrote "seller canceled transaction for no reason" which is clearly false.  I think I had valid reasons for not wanting to lose $2800.

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[A quoted summary text of the messages exchanged is at the bottom with userid replaced with generic "John Doe" and "Buyer" and addresses replaced with fake Metropolis Gotham City.  It is not an exact transcript.  Hopefully this avoids it being marked as spam.]

(Read from bottom to top like messages in ebay messages system.)

[Seller]
There's nothing I can say on a private phone call that ebay would favor for me. The buyer (you) always holds the advantage. ebay judgment is always overwhelming in favor of The Buyer.

I could hypothetically say on the private phone call that "I'm going to ship you a box of bricks so ignore what the ebay product photos" and IT WOULDN'T MATTER. Ebay would just point back to what the ebay listing actually had.

The phone call was for my assurances of an honest transaction. It cost you, the buyer, nothing in the eyes of ebay.

I mean, I guess I could send "private" email to your JohnDoe@fakemail.com address. It still doesn't reduce your stance with ebay in any way even though ebay can't see all your personal emails. Your opinion about ebay not being in the loop of a private phone call doesn't make sense to me.

Could you set your vindictiveness aside and please confirm the cancellation of the transaction?

[Buyer, John Doe]
Transparency is accomplished by communicating on eBay. And I could just as easily say the way you were communicating, intentional or not, felt as if you trying to strongarm me into a private phone call, which by the way is against eBay policy.

[Seller]:
It is your right to leave negative feedback but it's not worth it to have 100% feedback if it means I lose $2800 because I didn't do proper due diligence on where I was shipping a very expensive item.

Maybe it's your (unintentional) style of communication but it had the tone of "blackmail" and I have to protect myself from potential scams. I'm distressed that my fears about this transaction going terribly wrong has irritated you.

(The more I think about it, the stranger it seems that a buyer wouldn't want to hear from the seller who's shipping a $3000 unit. It's just very weird in my 17 years of ebay transactions.)

I don't want to do hostile transactions with no transparency. Your correspondence with ultimatums gave me no assurances this was an honest transaction. Therefore, it's not true that "seller canceled transaction for no reason". I've explained my reasons several times.

If you could please confirm the cancellation of the ebay transaction so I can relist it immediately, I would greatly appreciate it. I quickly refunded your PayPal payment and would appreciate you returning the courtesy by quickly cancelling the ebay transaction. Thank you.

[Buyer, John Doe]
Unfortunately, that was not at your discretion to do and you have been reported. That's a shame seeing as you have 100% feedback.

[Seller]:
Sorry, I'm very afraid of this and I can't do it. I'm also concerned that you're not acknowledging my misgivings about this transaction.

I have refunded your Paypal payment.

I have cancelled the order with the reason: "Something was wrong with the buyer's shipping address"

Please confirm the cancellation so I can relist it. Thank you and I'm sorry we couldn't make this work.

[Buyer, John Doe]
So, I talked to eBay and they said you should ship because I already paid and its a legally binding contract.

[Seller]:
Ok, sorry for inconveniencing you. Hopefully, you can come up with something that makes me comfortable.

Just an fyi, there's 40 minutes left before the 6pm cutoff to ship it today. I can also ship it tomorrow and you'll still receive it for the weekend.

I'm putting your paypal address here for ebay records: JohnDoe@fakemail.com

[Buyer, John Doe]
Give me a minute to talk to eBay and see if I can figure out something.

[Seller]:
Ok, I understand. Can I refund your PayPal money and we can cancel this ebay transaction? I'm just not comfortable shipping there without a phone call.

It's a combination of red flags to me. The post office box is one issue. The other is a google search on your name in Metropolis doesn't turn up anything of note.

https://www.google.com/search?q="John+Doe"+Metropolis

Yes, your ebay profile says you've been a member since 2006 but I have no idea if your account has been hijacked or what. That's why I'm looking for warm and fuzzies by talking to somebody. (If you want to record the phone call, you're certainly welcome to do that.)

Of the previous 20 times I've requested a phone chat, this is the first time the buyer refused. I totally understand your stance but I just get this weird feeling that the unit is going to a black hole and I'm going to lose $2800.

[Buyer, John Doe]
I live at the Metropolis Gotham City Resort which is a hotel that also has condos in it, one of which I am renting. I don't trust the hotel with packages because they are rude and have bad customer service. Thats why I have a box at the UPS store. It is a personal mailbox, not for business. If anything were to go wrong, ebay has no way of knowing what we discussed in a phone call.

[Seller]:
I understand your concern. I'm not trying to do anything outside of ebay but simply to confirm the details. I looked at the shipping address and it looks like it's going to a UPS mailbox. When that happens, I prefer to talk to the actual person with a live voice call who bought this to help prevent scams. I'm not rich so I can't afford to send out a $2800 item to an address I'm not comfortable with.

To add to the ebay recordkeeping, if the #976 is also your mailbox for business mail, please put the name of that business in the reply. Thanks,

[Buyer, John Doe]
I prefer to do all communication on ebay so there is a record of everything.

[Seller]:
Hello, I got your PayPal payment and I'm ready to ship the compressor.

Since this is an expensive item, do you have a phone # I can call so we can chat for 2 minutes so I can verify the details? Thanks,

[myangelandmyprincess]

I can’t speak for the security of sending to a ups box.   

I do totally understand the buyer not wanting to take the conversation off eBay messages. On the boards we often recommend members don’t do that.  It offered no added protection for you and likely would just give red flags to a buyer 

[myangelandmyprincess]

Just wanted to add while I don’t know anything about ups mailboxes.  I have a no contract cell phone.  I have come across a lot of companies who won’t allow me to use it to verify my identity by then sending me a code in text.    I understand why but im a legit person and with the number of people who use non contract phone service it’s a shame we all get penalized for the possibility of abuse that exists 

[mam98031]

There isn't likely anything you can do about the negative or the FVFs you experienced.  You actually didn't have a solid reason to cancel the transaction as Ebay doesn't recognize fear as a valid reason.  I mean absolutely no disrespect by that.  I actually do understand why you were scared, I don't agree with you, but I do understand it.

I think it would have been a better approach to send the item requiring a signature for acceptance / receipt of the item.  And fully insuring it as well.

I'm not sure where you got this from "And yes, ebay's policies says buyers have every right to force the seller to ship without extra verification..."  I am not aware of any policy on Ebay that says this.  In fact for higher priced items PP and Ebay want sellers to get a signature confirmation on deliver or your Seller protection will be voided.  Who told you this or where did you read it?

Don't respond to the negative.  Just leave it alone.  I know it bothers you, but when you respond it only draws more attention to it.  But if you just can't resist, make sure whatever you post is COMPLETELY professional and do NOT point fingers at your buyer.  You do NOT know they were trying to scam you.  Your fear got the better of you and you have no proof that your buyer was about to do anything wrong.

"I prefer to do all communication on ebay so there is a record of everything."  This is NOT an unreasonable request.  As a seller I've done this before.  Your buyer is right, it affords better protection for you and for them.

Reading your email chain it appears to me that your buyer was acting in good faith and you just let your fear run away with you.  Your buyer was completely reasonable and polite with you.  You had your mind made up that a phone call would be a requirement to you shipping the item out and you can't impose such a requirement on a buyer.

I'm sorry this happened to you as you certainly cost yourself some money and lost a nice sale.  Hopefully you won't repeat this again with another buyer.  It is dangerous to assume things.  If I were your buyer I would have been very insulted by your insistance that a phone call had to happen so I could prove myself to you.  It isn't your buyer's job to calm your fears.

[zdynx]

>>>"I think it would have been a better approach to send the item requiring a signature for acceptance / receipt of the item."

But the signature only verifies receipt of the item.  It doesn't really signal any integrity of the buyer.  I'm not just looking for assurance that someone got a box delivered.  I'm also weighing the probabilities that this is an non-fraudulent transaction.  A "signature required" doesn't prevent the buyer claiming a month later that the item is "not as described" and filing a fraudulent chargeback.

As curiosity, have you ever lost amounts like $2800 or $6500 in a single transaction from buyer fraud?

>>>"And yes, ebay's policies says buyers have every right to force the seller to ship without extra verification..."  I am not aware of any policy on Ebay that says this. 

Sorry for the confusion.  The "extra verification" in this context means my extra steps for verification.

>>>"I prefer to do all communication on ebay so there is a record of everything."  This is NOT an unreasonable request.  As a seller I've done this before.  Your buyer is right, it affords better protection for you and for them.

Sure as a seller, you want all buyer's communication on record.  But there isn't anything I can say on the phone that would remove any protection for the buyer.  Virtually all advice about not doing things off ebay is 99% to prevent ebay getting cut out of the FVF from outside transactions.  The buyer already paid and ebay already got their cut.  What realistic danger is there for the buyer? 

>>>You do NOT know they were trying to scam you.  Your fear got the better of you and you have no proof that your buyer was about to do anything wrong.

No, of course I don't have irrefutable proof.  I can only go on seeing a combination of things that don't add up.  It's about probabilities of a bad outcome and not irrefutable proof that can perfectly predict the future.   It's about relying on my past 17 years of experience for transactions that don't look right.

• When I googled the buyer's (uncommon) name, the only hits was a 22-year old skateboarder and another person with a criminal arrest.  That's a red flag.  The 22-year old is unlikely to buy a $2800 item.  (Sure it's possible but unlikely.) 
• Neither name on google is associated with the city I'm shipping it to.  Another red flag. 
• He didn't want me to verify on the phone.  Absolutely his right according to ebay's literal letter-of-the-law but the previous 20 buyers for 17 years always welcomed the call without any debate or hostility.  So that's another red flag. 
• The buyer being deceptive in telling me that "talk to eBay and see if I can figure out something"   -- which is being friendly in tone -- but actually secretly pursuing a hostile ultimatium reply -- is being deceptive and it's another red flag.   From the tone, I thought he was going to get ebay to send me extra details, or maybe even get creative with a 3-way chat, or some other non-hostile act of handling my misgivings.   Instead, he came back with "ebay said legally binding contract".  I've never had a buyer do that to me before in 17 years and it screamed to me, "I'm going to scam you and you can do nothing about it because ebay says so!"

The other after-the-fact red flags include saying "you have been reported. That's a shame seeing as you have 100% feedback."  It had this diabolical Italian mobster tone of "nice 100% feedback rating you got there and it would be a shame of something bad happened to it."

>>>and lost a nice sale. 

Here I'd like to use your previous logic.  You have no proof this was going to be a nice sale.

Let's think about this, if the buyer scammed 5 previous sellers and abused the ebay buyer protection program, I'd have no way of even knowing that.  The buyer's feedback history won't show it because sellers can't leave feedback.  There's also no indicator of how many times the buyer abused the "item not as described" to get his money back.   The seller is completely in the dark as to the integrity of the buyer.  How do we know this is a "nice sale"?

Now we both know that ebay does not flash a giant neon sign above a userid that says, "this ebay buyer knows how to cleverly game the system to scam you".  Therefore, all the seller can do is read multiple signals and infer what might happen.

>>>If I were your buyer I would have been very insulted by your insistance that a phone call had to happen so I could prove myself to you. 

I guess there's a gap in sympathy to understand why a seller is trying to avoid losing $2800.  Why would you feel insulted if you know ebay deliberately hides all signals from the seller that this could be a dishonest transaction?

>>>It isn't your buyer's job to calm your fears.

Yes, and ebay agrees with you.  However, it seems a reasonable human courtesy.  I would also feel insulted if I was a buyer asked to take a phone call for a $5 DVD sale.  However, a $2800 item, I can see the reason to work with the seller instead of being hostile.

[*madison]

You listed an item,

it sold,

buyer paid,

you refused to ship out of fear,

so the buyer left a neg.

Did you expect a 5 star glowing positive feedback ?

[zdynx]

>>>I think it would have been a better approach to send the item requiring a signature for acceptance / receipt of the item. 

Also, to use the ebay/Paypal lingo, "signature required" only attempts to handle the claims of INR (Item Not Received).  It does nothing for claims of SNAD (significantly not as described). 

Sorry for the confusion if my post seemed like it was overly concerned with a package getting lost in the mail.  It's really about people using PO Boxes and evasive communication acting as a signals for frauds like SNAD.

Ebay has no "data mining" or "artificial intelligence" tools to help root out fraudulent buyers.  Therefore, sellers are on their own to sniff out things that don't look right.  Sellers have to keep asking, "Does this transaction look like a SNAD? etc"

[zdynx]

>>>Did you expect a 5 star glowing positive feedback ?

Hey, I don't have to be patronized like a child.  I definitely didn't expect 5 star glowing feedback. 

My post wasn't really about the negative feedback.  It was about calibrating the boundaries of what's reasonable.  Yes, I know the ebay policies.  It's not about literal ebay policies.  It's about a sanity check for analyzing how transactions might turn out and protecting myself from potentially losing $2800.

I'm not whining about a negative feedback and I'm sorry if my exploration of the real major topic of fraud without ebay support that's unrelated to negative feedback annoys you.

If my topic about predicting potential scams with communication techniques to ward them off have already been beat to death in previous threads, please post them and I will read them. 

[tunicaslot]

Your mistake was listing such a high valued item and not specifying pick up only as that is the only way that would calm your fears. I completely side with the buyer in this case. It's not uncommon for business people with means to have a apt or condo in a hotel - my friends father has one in a well known hotel in Toronto and he also has a PO Box as articles accepted at the front desk can go missing.

It's not unusual for someone to not be found on google if their main residece is actually somewhere else and the condo/apt are used while doing business in that particular city for a time period. The buyer seemed sincere and I found nothing wrong with him wasnting to discuss it with Ebay - he was trying to find an amicable solution.

I don't think anything we say is going to change your mind. I think you really just want us to say that you did the right thing and back you up - which we can't. Beig you don't sell alot - you received a strike for cancelling that transaction without just cause - so beware that you are probably pretty close should another incident like this occur and you cancel to have your selling privileges revoked. The neg nd FVFs are the least of your worries.

[zdynx]

 Ok, this is fascinating. So far:

• you wrote, "The buyer seemed sincere and I found nothing wrong with him"
• mam98031 wrote, "Reading your email chain it appears to me that your buyer was acting in good faith"

I perceived the opposite from the buyer!   I won't argue with how you both percieve it but I want to try to get a better of the readers interpreting the text so I ask tunicaslot, have you every lost thousands of dollars on an fraudulent ebay transaction?

I'm trying to see if there's a difference of how sellers read the text based on different experiences of first-hand fraud with high-dollar items and what the previous emails and looked like before that point.

Also, since you both think the buyer's communication style isn't hiding anything, I'm guessing my email communication (as as seller) looks like a dishonest scammer.   That's the upside-down world of distrust in the marketplace.  Followup questions from the seller to filter out fraud transactions looks like fraud itself.

 >>>PO Box as articles accepted at the front desk can go missing.

I'm actually ok with shipping to a PO Box.  It was only a red flag in combination with the other factors I saw.

[laylajames9]

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@zdynx wrote:
Sorry for the confusion if my post seemed like it was overly concerned with a package getting lost in the mail.  It's really about people using PO Boxes and evasive communication acting as a signals for frauds like SNAD.

Ebay has no "data mining" or "artificial intelligence" tools to help root out fraudulent buyers.  Therefore, sellers are on their own to sniff out things that don't look right.  Sellers have to keep asking, "Does this transaction look like a SNAD? etc"

---

If you're so fearful of SNADs, don't list expensive items. A buyer can assure you they're legit on a two minute phone call, then after the item arrives claim SNAD and ship you back their old broken compressor or some rocks.

@zdynx wrote: Also, since you both think the buyer's communication style isn't hiding anything, I'm guessing my email communication (as as seller) looks like a dishonest scammer.   That's the upside-down world of distrust in the marketplace.  Followup questions from the seller to filter out fraud transactions looks like fraud itself.

You didn't come across as a dishonest scammer. You started out okay, but about midway through you came across as very paranoid and, in my opinion, borderline accusing the buyer of being a scammer at the end.

[*madison]

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@zdynx wrote:

>>>Did you expect a 5 star glowing positive feedback ?

Hey, I don't have to be patronized like a child.  I definitely didn't expect 5 star glowing feedback. 

My post wasn't really about the negative feedback.  It was about calibrating the boundaries of what's reasonable.  Yes, I know the ebay policies.  It's not about literal ebay policies.  It's about a sanity check for analyzing how transactions might turn out and protecting myself from potentially losing $2800.

I'm not whining about a negative feedback and I'm sorry if my exploration of the real major topic of fraud without ebay support that's unrelated to negative feedback annoys you.

If my topic about predicting potential scams with communication techniques to ward them off have already been beat to death in previous threads, please post them and I will read them. 

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I wasn't patronising you like a child, I asked a question and you have answered it.

But you was talking to the buyer like they were a scammer, and 10/10 to the buyer for keeping a cool head, some buyers would have hammered you for sending those messages..

And if your real major topic was unrelated to the negative, why stick it in the title ? I mentioned the neg because you did..

Nothing annoys me btw.

We are all aware about potential scams, yes it happens.  Items can be shipped to an address without any seller concerns, and the seller can still be scammed..

If you're so afraid of being scammed, don't list high ticket items if you don't want to ship them. 

[zdynx]

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@*madison wrote:

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And if your real major topic was unrelated to the negative, why stick it in the title ? I mentioned the neg because you did..

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The "negative feedback in 17 years" in the title was more about setting my character background as a longtime veteran ebayer that's sold thousands of items without incident. 

Sorry for giving the impression that "negative feedback" was intended to be the dominant theme to discuss.

[*madison]

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@zdynx wrote:

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@*madison wrote:

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And if your real major topic was unrelated to the negative, why stick it in the title ? I mentioned the neg because you did..

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The "negative feedback in 17 years" in the title was more about setting my character background as a longtime veteran ebayer that's sold thousands of items without incident. 

Sorry for giving the impression that "negative feedback" was intended to be the dominant theme to discuss.

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The title was also about buyer retaliation, never mind your character, look what you have said about the buyers character, a buyer who did nothing wrong.  I'm pleased you have sold thousands of items without incident, but the incident you have now is one you created yourself..

The buyer didn't retaliate, the buyer left an honest neg to warn other buyers, that is what feedback is for..

[a_c_green]

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@zdynx wrote:

 >>>PO Box as articles accepted at the front desk can go missing.

I'm actually ok with shipping to a PO Box.  It was only a red flag in combination with the other factors I saw.

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To be clear, your buyer was using a UPS mailbox address, according to his own description that you quoted. That is not the same as a PO Box at your local post office; don't conflate the terms. I don't know how much verification goes into renting a UPS mailbox, but I would have full confidence in shipping to a PO Box; that is not a red flag. That's preferable to a street address, especially for items where a signature is not required.