False Not As Described case. Lost item and money. Recourse? eBay CS provided misleading info

[stefvik]

I have been selling and buying on eBay for 21 years. Mostly good experiences, but a decline in recent years.

Ebay return policies seem to enable unethical behavior by some buyers, and customer service used to be able to mediate and solve issues, while in recent years for the most part read a script.

I sold an analog dive watch for $139 in December. The buyer opened a case stating that she expected to have a depth gauge and other features. Those are present in digital dive computers, not in traditional dive watches. 

I accept no returns and I wrote that I sold the correct item with a proper description, like other listings for the same watch.

I contacted eBay CS, "Don't worry about it, ebay is on your side". they told me to wait, and I asked ebay to step in.  I got a message that the buyer was waiting for my response. I sent another message. 
No reply.

This morning I found out ebay ruled in favor of the buyer and they could keep the item and get a refund.

Ebay was not good at communicating this possibility. 
I would have sent a return label, even if I felt it was unfair. 

This is really unfortunate and feels like ebay does not respect sellers, I have 100% positive feedback, and 1000+ ratings. 

On one hand, returns are part of selling items, and some transactions are unpleasant. Probably it is not worth my time for the amount of money I have lost on this transaction. 

But at the same time not addressing the issue allows eBay to disregard and disrespect honest sellers. 

So I am considering bringing up the issue to the NY state Attorney general office, the Better Business Bureau, and Small Claims Court in NY. 
Big powerful corporations can take advantage of individuals, but when many coalesce there could be more chances to change bad policies and habits.

In cases like this, eBay should be liable for the return shipping, if they are unwilling to investigate a dispute and rule by default in favor of the seller.

I learned that a case always favors the seller even if they fail to provide evidence, respond to messages and make false claims that can be easily verified.

Ebay customer service seems now to be based in India, with employees who have their hands tied. They provide confusing information, it is a waste of time. 
Years ago, there was real customer service, with US-based employees for US-based buyers and sellers. The experience was a lot better.

I could shrug it off, think that it is not worth the time and energy, and start to migrate to other marketplace platforms that are not as complacent as ebay.

But it would be great if other sellers would unite in pressuring ebay corporate offices contacts, and social media and file claims with their court system and attorney generals. The more the better. 

Stefano

[mr_lincoln]

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@stefvik wrote:

I am aware that eBay would ne legally protected. But also I was given false information by eBay cs over the phone. If something is legal it my not be always right. 
if no one challenges policies, things may not improve 

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@stefvik   Actually, many here challenge policies; on this forum, through zoom meetings, through face to face meetings, through surveys, etc.  Sometimes policies change and other times the outcry of public demand is ignored ... "my way or the highway" is often the end result.

[powell-memorabilia]

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So I am considering bringing up the issue to the NY state Attorney general office, the Better Business Bureau, and Small Claims Court in NY. 

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^^^ This is when any credibility goes out the window.  The "I'll go to the BBB or my state's AG" threats don't have any teeth.  The BBB is a joke - they have zero influence with eBay.  AG's aren't going to be interested, either - just ask the 12,492 guys that came before and claimed to have a case ready for their AG.  

[stefvik]

Mr_lincoln, you make some very good points. 

I am not accepting returns, as I am just a private seller. I list on ebay gear I do not need anymore or items linked to my hobby, like plants, some watches, some spearfishing stuff.

30 day returns make me feel like some buyers can just "rent" and return, or in case of a plant cut some piece and propagate it. Also some margins are low. I ordered some watches on Aliexpress, to see what I like most and sold what I was not keeping with a $10/20 margin on $100 watches. 

I managed to find the phone and email of the buyer. She seems more clueless rather than malicious.

I hope I can get the watch back.

In any case what made me choose poorly was eBay's atrocious customer service agents. They have misleading information that made me not issue the shipping label by the deadline. 

Now the appeal ebay agents kept emailing me. Multiple people all providing different answers and most getting the details wrong.

It is inexcusable that ebay has such poor customer service. They raise the rates but they do not improve the experience for buyers and sellers. 

This should be changed. 

[stefvik]

So what do you suggest? Is there any recourse?  

[ittybitnot · Accepted solution]

 and customer service used to be able to mediate and solve issues

@stefvik 

As you have discovered, they no longer do that.  If you get incorrect information from the usual outsourced foreign call center customer service rep that causes the issue to be WORSE by following their advice, it is basically too bad to be you.   eBay will offer to give the agent "some coaching", but will do nothing to help a seller that was a victim of the bad advice. 

The return system is totally automated.  The procedure (and outcome) is basically predetermined at the time the buyer chooses their "reason" from the dropdown menu when they file the claim.  The reason they choose, need not be truthful or substantiated in any way.  What they put in the comments is never considered.  The auto system takes over, and that is the end of the issue.  

It is by reading here often that many of us have learned how that automation works.  Yes, there are eBay policies, but you can read them incessantly, and never see how they operate in a real situation.  For example,  a SELLER that "asks ebay to step in and help" (escalate a case) will result in a "we have found in favor of the buyer" notice usually in five to ten minutes.  No human looked to see, for example, that the said buyer had you confused with another purchase and wants to return a sweater, when they purchased an anvil from you.   

There is no protection for a not as described claim (chosen from the dropdown menu).  At the point the choice is made the item becomes. for all intents and purposes,  exactly what the buyer says it is.  Your description no longer matters, and your pictures will never be viewed.  

So, the best bet is to accept the return, provide the return label, and pray you get YOUR item back in the condition sent.  If it is not your item, it doesn't matter either since you will be refunding anyway since "faulty returns" are considered by eBay as 'part of doing business'.   As suggested, you agree to being a victim of buyer fraud by using this venue in the first place.  Of course, that premise is stated a bit differently in the User Agreement and policy pages. 

[reallynicestamps]

@ittybitnot 

I disagree.

The problem is that eBay seems to direct unhappy  members first to the phone clerks, who work for a Utah based subcontractor.

Whether that phone clerk is US-based or not, and it seems to depend on the time of day, they are all poorly trained and their main job is public relations. They want to get you off the phone, add another call to their quota, and get a pee break.

The callers who want to "speak to a human being" are all too willing to believe their rants will help.

The social media Chats are covered by employees.

While the answers may not be what the caller wants, the advice has been, at least in my experience, accurate and useful.

But again, an awful lot of phone complaints are basically rants from members who want to run the site differently than eBay, the owner, intends.



https://www.facebook.com/eBayForBusiness/ — Message button in upper right on landing page.
https://twitter.com/askebay?lang=en
https://community.ebay.com/t5/Selling/How-do-I-contact-Customer-Support/m-p/32016431#M1783851 -> Automated Assistant, type AGENT -> enter. You will then get more options.


The social media Chat accounts are covered by trained eBay employees with some authority.
And you get a transcript so you can compare what you heard with what you were told.
 

[krazzykats]

Late to the show...😁

Simply automate your returns to return the item.

Automated returns

eBay automates the returns and refund processes to save sellers’ time and enable them to process returns faster. Automated returns also streamline the returns experience for buyers. In most cases, eBay will automatically accept return requests.

How returns work (ebay.com)

[patrickcullen]

Ebay is not seller friendly.  I sold a Mac Studio last month.  The specs were described and the item matched those specs completely.  Seller received item on 12/19/22, filed a request on 12/19 to return the item because it did not match the description.  I agreed to the return (because Ebay leaves you no choice) and the shipping label was sent on 12/19.  Buyer sat on the return until yesterday when he suddenly decided to cancel the return and I'm finally seeing the payment come through.  In some of the correspondence with him he said it did not arrive in time (not a reason given for the return), which indicated to me he was flipping the item.  

I'm not sure how all of a sudden the item magically masked the specs to his liking, but at least I finally got paid.  Ebay gave him until 1/11/23 to ship the item back which seems to allow for him to try and flip the items while having a guaranteed return if he is unable to.  Complete **bleep** if you ask me.

[my_boston_baked_beans]

eBay should be called *buyerBay* as buyers get away with murder and sellers get the bill!  We sellers are not Walmart, especially small sellers like myself, therefore can not afford these costly expenditures experienced on eBay. I guess, the eBay cheerleaders, would say that is just the price of selling on eBay and the buyer protection rules proclaim this. 

Perhaps, small sellers have is to sell elsewhere where, hopefully, the playing field is more fair.

[my_boston_baked_beans]

Plus the fact sales are so poor and the fees so high on eBay it makes sense to try other venues that are more desirable all around!

[stefvik]

Ebay kept the 24 bucks fees, and those got taken out from my account to reimburse the buyer. 

Ebay in these cases gets the same amount of commission, no matter of what. So there is no financial incentive to back the seller's claims.

I was naive and had the eBay C/S subcontractors on the phone been so misleading, I would have accepted the return as a lesser evil. 

Instead, I feel misled. How to make a bad policy worse by having nonforthcoming customer service reps.

Today I spoke with one who had an Irish accent, he was in account management, he sounded more competent.

But next time I hear a customer rep over the phone tell me "Don't worry ebay has your back" I will know they mean "ebay stabs you in the back".

Does ebay monitor these conversations and ever contribute to the discussions?

[reallynicestamps]

I agree that the long period for return shipping is a problem.

It would make more sense if the buyer had perhaps a week from filing a Claim to ship the disputed item back.

That's still a long time, since the buyer has 30 days from delivery to make the claim, then we would add in a  week to get it in the mail, and another two or three weeks for delivery.

The seller's money could be Held for nearly two months!

On the bright side, it sounds as if eBay released your money as soon as the buyer caved and the dispute ended.

@my_boston_baked_beans  I agree that no seller should be selling only on eBay. There are other venues, some with higher fees and more eyeballs, some with lower fees and few eyeballs, and some with very specific audiences. All can be useful.

[sapphire_studio]

There are SO many sellers stumbling on to this forum all the time who have gone through the same thing ignoring a return request assuming no returns trumps the 30 days MBG.  Most of them seem like they lose even more money than you did because they were targeted by a scammer rather than this guy who'd probably genuinely just wanted to return his item to you and now doesn't have to.

 Just consider yourself lucky that you didn't lose as much money as they did in your first lesson and also lucky that it took you so long before you had to learn this lesson.

  I think you should really consider adding buyer pays returns instead of no returns. You state that you think it will encourage people to borrow your items and just return them.  What is stopping them from doing this now when you have no returns?  Scammers are known to target people with no returns a lot more often.  If you do buyer pays returns and become a top rated seller than you can take off 50% of the refund if something is returned to you damaged (aka they borrowedand used it like you are afraid of).   If this recent experience hasn't taught you that no returns is outdated and meaningless then I don't know what will. Just think about it....Be smart.

[reallynicestamps]

Ebay kept the 24 bucks fees, and those got taken out from my account to reimburse the buyer.

??

What was the original payment and how much was returned? When were the fees taken? At the time of the original purchase?

Usually when the seller wins the dispute, they get the entire payment returned, since the transaction never happened/failed.

Those fees may turn up in your monthly statement. Let us know?

Why would eBay use their fees, that they "earned", to reimburse the buyer who paid nothing and cost eBay money to mediate the dispute.?

[stefvik]

Thank you. It is good advice you gave. I am considering. I sell some plants often and giving free returns for 30 day may incentivize people to return plants they are not lucky with. Or may incentivize people to use something 30 days and send it back. But the partial refund option seems appealing. 

I think I was already top rated seller. 

I managed through Facebook ebay customer service to have the seller fees reimbursed. The agent on the Facebook messenger ebay page seems actually competent and forthcoming. 

I think I spent too much time on this, but ebay banks on sellers moving on. Raising issues and consuming their agent's time and resources, reporting to state agencies may help in the long run, if enough scammed sellers do that.

I live in Brooklyn NY, mu landlord owns 100+ buildings and lets them fall apart and increases rents to market tenants. All my complaints went unanswered, a 3 month rent strike made my credit score tank from 809 to 680, with false claims reporting of more money owed. 

Through a non profit org we created a tenant association, we got legal support and started addressing the issues with a multi prong approach. 

Now the management started making repairs, answering calls and tickets. It really has had an effect.

Ebay policies are unfair to honest sellers. There is no chance of rectifying this if we all accept this as a matter of fact. 

Americans could have accepted the British tea tax increase without complaints and still be part of the commonwealth. Sometimes if you feel some policies are unjust, you should act on it.