False Not As Described case. Lost item and money. Recourse? eBay CS provided misleading info

[stefvik]

I have been selling and buying on eBay for 21 years. Mostly good experiences, but a decline in recent years.

Ebay return policies seem to enable unethical behavior by some buyers, and customer service used to be able to mediate and solve issues, while in recent years for the most part read a script.

I sold an analog dive watch for $139 in December. The buyer opened a case stating that she expected to have a depth gauge and other features. Those are present in digital dive computers, not in traditional dive watches. 

I accept no returns and I wrote that I sold the correct item with a proper description, like other listings for the same watch.

I contacted eBay CS, "Don't worry about it, ebay is on your side". they told me to wait, and I asked ebay to step in.  I got a message that the buyer was waiting for my response. I sent another message. 
No reply.

This morning I found out ebay ruled in favor of the buyer and they could keep the item and get a refund.

Ebay was not good at communicating this possibility. 
I would have sent a return label, even if I felt it was unfair. 

This is really unfortunate and feels like ebay does not respect sellers, I have 100% positive feedback, and 1000+ ratings. 

On one hand, returns are part of selling items, and some transactions are unpleasant. Probably it is not worth my time for the amount of money I have lost on this transaction. 

But at the same time not addressing the issue allows eBay to disregard and disrespect honest sellers. 

So I am considering bringing up the issue to the NY state Attorney general office, the Better Business Bureau, and Small Claims Court in NY. 
Big powerful corporations can take advantage of individuals, but when many coalesce there could be more chances to change bad policies and habits.

In cases like this, eBay should be liable for the return shipping, if they are unwilling to investigate a dispute and rule by default in favor of the seller.

I learned that a case always favors the seller even if they fail to provide evidence, respond to messages and make false claims that can be easily verified.

Ebay customer service seems now to be based in India, with employees who have their hands tied. They provide confusing information, it is a waste of time. 
Years ago, there was real customer service, with US-based employees for US-based buyers and sellers. The experience was a lot better.

I could shrug it off, think that it is not worth the time and energy, and start to migrate to other marketplace platforms that are not as complacent as ebay.

But it would be great if other sellers would unite in pressuring ebay corporate offices contacts, and social media and file claims with their court system and attorney generals. The more the better. 

Stefano

[carlmarxx]

There is the federal and state  Merchant and Consumer Protection   policy  statues . 

[monica-sells]

no disrespect intended....if I came off that way ...my bad

We all need to stay up with current procedures.....it appears that you mistook "step in" (which I think is misleading) as they would help you......

as you now know, that is the last thing you want to do

i too, have had only 1 return since i started selling (1999), and I came to this forum to review the options and results of those options.....

[stainlessenginecovers]

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@stefvik wrote:

How could congress enact laws to protect sellers and buyers?

ebay could simply evaluate the interaction and the situation. 
the watch I sold was described accurately. The seller assumed  an analog dive watch had the functionality of a digital dive computer. 

there was no misrepresentation. It’s in my interest to provide accurate descriptions to avoid issues and returns. 

---

There are well over 1,000,000 transactions on eBay every day. Probably 10% involve returns- 100,000 easy. There is NO WAY to 'police' something with that kind of volume as well as something that is un-policeable because anything a seller says is un-provable (no pictures, no video as they can all be altered or not even be of the 'thing' that is being discussed)

Says 'you', which again- there is no proof of what you really sent and to be an 'expert' in 'digital' having XYZ abilities vs 'analog' not having those abilities- would mean eBay would need to find and hire an expert in everything on the planet- again, another 'impossibility'. 

Therefore, this system is 'automated. All Buyers get a 30 day Money Back Guarantee. It's the responsibility of any buyer or seller to understand that system. Choose to ignore it and you get what you get. There's not a 'court' or 'congress' in the land that is going to back anything up except the law- which BY LAW, these things need to be spelled out in Policies and Transparent (easily accessible) to ANYONE using the site.

They are.

Case Closed.

You learned the system. 

"No Returns" basically means no 'remorse returns and hopefully it stops someone from trying to return something (at least that must be the reason a seller would ever use it)

But...a Selling Website is ALWAYS going to back up the buyer. 

Seller sells

Buyer Buys

Buyer doesn't like, so they are out the $$ unless they can get their $$ back

Buyer Returns

Sellers has it in hand to Sell again; Buyer has their money back

Seller resells. 

When it's all said and done, eventually a seller has sold the item to a buyer that is happy to have the item. 

Happens 1,000,000 times a day here. 

[onlinecentral]

The eBay Money Back Guarantee enables buyers to get refunds for these reasons.

1: Doesn't work or defective

2: Doesn't match description or photos

3: Wrong item sent

4: Missing parts or pieces

5: Arrived damaged

6: Doesn't seem authentic

If you don't issue a return label, you forfeit the payment and the buyer keeps the merchandise.

As stated in an earlier post, this has been the policy for nearly a decade.

Your mistake was incorrectly thinking that your No Returns policy somehow superceded the Money Back Guarantee.

Contacting customer service will only give you a false sense of security, that the case was ruled in your favor, that you are somehow exempt from the Money Back Guarantee.

Invariably, the case gets reversed in the buyer's favor.

[stefvik]

OK, thanks for the apology.

I was misled by the eBay CS agents on the phone. Subcontractors in India, who just read the script.

"don't worry, ebay has your back, wait until January 3rd, ask ebay to step in".

I was given the impression that I would wait some days and ebay would adjudicate in the buyer or my favor and then accept or deny the return.

There is no word from the ebay CS subcontractor that I may lose my item and the money, just patiently wait. This is inexcusable. Ebay should email, send SMS messages, even an automated call reminding the seller that they may lose the item and the money within 5 days if the return is not accepted. 

Even my dentist with a small office sends multiple text messages and emails when the appointment for cleaning gets close and reminds me of the cancelation fee if it is less than 24 hours. A tech giant like eBay is unable to do that. 

Of course, I paid a price for my ignorance and naivete, but this does not justify ebay putting the burden on the seller even when the buyer for malice, superficiality, or incompetence opens a case.

There is another thread here where a seller lost a $950 item because the buyer claimed he received an empty box. The UPS investigation showed that the box never changed weight in transit and was delivered intact. Even with this evidence ebay ruled against the seller.

Of course, we can just see this as a bump and not get too worked up. But the abysmal. misleading ebay customer service, no seller protection, increasing fees, hard-to-navigate website to find the small print has no excuse. 

If customer service agents would have just told me that the buyer is always right, I had no recourse, I would have not been happy, but at least I would have managed the return differently.

If we all honest sellers address these issues, maybe ebay could make some changes. 

I may start buying and selling less on ebay and look for alternatives. 

This behavior and customer service level is unacceptable

[stefvik]

Thank you, I understand, calling customer service made me feel the policy was different. This is inexcusable. 

Ebay should be more forthcoming.

Of course the more people know that returns with ebay are so easy and people can get free stuff if they claim they received an empty box, even if the seller can provide counter evidence from an investigation, the problem will get bigger and bigger down the road. 

[stefvik]

Thanks I understand that.

Some items have low margins that reselling them implies a loss. 

Calling customer service gave me misleading information. 

[reallynicestamps]

I accept no returns and I wrote that I sold the correct item with a proper description, like other listings for the same watch.

You can have a No Returns policy, but you cannot have a No Returns policy.

When you refused a return, you in effect told eBay you never wanted to see the watch again.

And they took you at your word.

When you did not refund voluntarily, eBay did, then took their money out of your account.

And your lack of "cooperation" means you also got a Defect.

After so many years and successful transactions, you could have been protected by using Cookie Jar Insurance.

That's just tossing a few virtual pennies (or even dimes) from each transaction  into a Virtual Cookie Jar and when an occasional problem, like this illiterate dimwit, comes up, using those pennies to pay for the Return Shipping Label.

At 10c a transaction, your 1000 transactions would have left $100 in the Cookie Jar.

Lots of money to cover return shipping. Even a penny per would have $10 in the Jar.

Then while you would be refunding, you would have the watch back to resell, to someone who can read.

There is a school of thought that No Return policies encourage buyers to open Claims believing that they will end up like your dimwit, with their money back and a watch to sell.

[stefvik]

That is good advice, but ebay was misleading. 

I could also increase my shipping costs by 25 cents, and each itam and see that as an insurance. But shipping costs within the USA. via USPS seem to keep increasing.

Anyway it is just disappointing that ebay customer service subcontractors are misleading.

I had very few returns in the past 5 years. In some cases, I did a full refund, and the buyer keeps the inexpensive item, I did partial refunds.  Even if it was an annoyance, I never felt it was as bad faith as in this case.

Had the buyer replied to my messages we would likely have worked out something. There was zero communication from her part.   I assumed ebay would take that into consideration.

These policies enable dishonest or careless behavior. ebay should be more responsible and show some accountability. They used to have decent domestic customer service.

[reallynicestamps]

I was misled by the eBay CS agents on the phone. Subcontractors in India,

The agents on the phone don't work for eBay. They work for a sub-contractor in Utah.

Many are in the Philippines, not in India, but even more are in the USA.

From my (non-US) point of view, the US agents are worse since they seem to have a mental block against the idea that other countries exist and use different postal systems and laws. The Pinoy agents are more aware and likely have a cousin working in an extended care home in Edmonton.

If you need an actual trained eBay employee, you have to use the social media accounts.



https://www.facebook.com/eBayForBusiness/ — Message button in upper right on landing page.


https://twitter.com/askebay?lang=en


https://community.ebay.com/t5/Selling/How-do-I-contact-Customer-Support/m-p/32016431#M1783851 -> Automated Assistant, type AGENT -> enter. You will then get more options.


The social media Chat accounts are covered by trained eBay employees with some authority.
And you get a transcript so you can compare what you heard with what you were told.
 

[luckythewinner]

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@stefvik wrote:

In cases like this, eBay should be liable for the return shipping, if they are unwilling to investigate a dispute and rule by default in favor of the seller.

---

The terms of service you agreed to when you started selling on eBay say that you must abide by eBay's decision. 

[stefvik]

This is helpful. 
thanks for the links. 
i am an immigrant myself, no prejudice. 
I just find the current subcontracted eBay agents on the phone have their hands tied, and tend to not be forthcoming about policies that can displease the caller. 

when there was an actual, domestic customer service they seemed able to solve these situations. 
sometimes eBay would step in and cover some expense. 
the experience has gone down the drain. 
they seem to cut costs, raise commissions. Maybe it is time to explore other platforms. 

[stefvik]

I am aware that eBay would ne legally protected. But also I was given false information by eBay cs over the phone. If something is legal it my not be always right. 
if no one challenges policies, things may not improve 

[mr_lincoln]

Hi @stefvik 

I am sure others have touched on some of this but there are many, many threads on The Community where Sellers using the No returns accepted decline a return and eBay steps in and refunds the Buyer AND lets them keep the item.  This happens over and over again.

Its very simple ... either change to returns Accepted or this could happen again ... some Sellers have good success with not accepting returns but it only takes one or two cases like yours to sour the Selling experience on eBay. 

I use 30 day Free returns on everything I sell and returns are automatically accepted, that's good customer service and return rate is low.  That setting gives me flexibility on how much I refund Buyers when an item is returned AND without eBay's involvement.

And you are right, returns are part of doing business ... unless an item is returned damaged or switched by the Buyer I can resell it anyway ... the most recent was I got an item back Wed ... it originally sold for $ 64.95.  The return was a Remorse return so I did not refund the original shipping.  I Relisted it Thursday (yesterday) but RAISED the price to $ 74.95 ... it sold overnight and shipped out this morning ... they don't always turn around that quickly but this is an example where Accepting returns did not hurt me in any way.

[reallynicestamps]

But shipping costs within the USA. via USPS seem to keep increasing.

Don't tell any non-US seller that USPS is expensive.

I don't track more than one in 25 items, because the cheapest tracked service offered by Canada Post is $12 and that is domestic /Regional.

They used to have decent domestic customer service.

I've only been selling here since 1998.

Customer Service has always been awful.

At best they have been even-handedly awful.