11-28-2017 06:57 AM
There are a very large number of listings that just show a photo. Descriptions are one sentence, or a lot of unessential info about that general kind of coin. Please note that most photos DO NOT TELL THE WHOLE STORY. Descriptions are best if they include: how much of "LIBERTY" shows, defects, suspected cleaning, coloration, etc.
I have passed on buying many, many coins because this kind of info is missing. See ANA Code of Ethics.
11-28-2017 01:56 PM
11-28-2017 02:02 PM
11-28-2017 02:06 PM
@ted_200 wrote:Descriptions are best if they include: how much of "LIBERTY" shows, defects, suspected cleaning, coloration, etc.
For the most part, eBay coin buyers are unwilling to accept these details as "truth", so many sellers omit all that and just refer the buyer to the photos. If you can't determine the grade or condition issues from the photo, the photos aren't good enough. All of what you just cited would be covered by accurately describing the grade. I generally do this as well, but grading is subjective, and many sellers feel any attempt at providing that information just opens them up to future "not as described" disputes.
Well for a seller like me I am not a coin or money expert but sometimes I find myself with them so I am not going to make claims on a grade as I have no clue about grading them, some buyers will have to understand this, I can see this complaint being more valid if someone only deals in money though.
11-28-2017 02:13 PM
@user7586954857 wrote:
I appreciate your diligence with the photos. A verbal description can never take the place of a photo. However, photos can also deceive, depending upon lighting and angles. I have seen a number of Morgan Dollars at high prices photographed at angles or under colored lights. I appreciate good descriptions. I don't know if I have ever purchased from you or not, and I have no specific axes to grind. I wish you well!
Photographing isn't great when you can use a scanner. Albeit I don't have the best scanner, but it does actually catch a lot of dark copper details. I'd certainly never trade my scanner for a camera.
You must recall how many pictures we see of coins where the coin takes up less than 10% of the total image? Lots of times (this is with inexpensive coins though, since that's what I collect), I can't see a good picture of what I'm buying. So I do feel your frustration.
Not perfect with the photographing if the lighting is bad for 2 seconds, but I use natural light. I find photographing to be a bit annoying so I'm not really sure why someone wouldn't put their coin in a 2x2 and label it, and put it on a flatbed scanner for a good image. When the coin is in a 2x2, we know it's not being cling clanged around for months until it sells.
Cheers, C.
11-28-2017 02:14 PM
First, lack of description does not mean deception. It could be several reasons. I have sold some of a coin collection I inherited and really do not know much about coins. Second, some scammers take advantage of too much descripion for fraudulent claims. So it is best to just find a reputable seller and if you need additional info ask for it. But realize that not everyone is as knowledgeable in the subject as you may be.
11-28-2017 02:17 PM
@rolenboy01 wrote:Well for a seller like me I am not a coin or money expert but sometimes I find myself with them so I am not going to make claims on a grade as I have no clue about grading them, some buyers will have to understand this, I can see this complaint being more valid if someone only deals in money though.
I'm not a grader either, my shop has an appraiser that spends 40 hours a week grading (mostly Canadian stuff that I don't sell in my eBay store). I note in my description that it's an opinion, but if I don't agree with his opinion I usually photoshop out the grade and declare as "circulated". Everything in my store is "circulated" because people can be picky on how good an uncirculated coin should be (a little nick from the mint while making them might put a buyer off). I'd really rather say it's circulated and have you get it and say "wow this looks amazing!"
I find with trying to grade buyers and sellers will get into arguments about condition and I need to avoid that at all costs.
Cheers, C.
11-28-2017 04:44 PM
@femmefan1946 wrote:I agree.
A local dealer has a reputation in the hobby community.
If he is smart he will deal fairly, because word will get around.
Where I live there are several active stamp clubs and new members are quickly warned to stay away from the local stamp shops, who have built a horrible reputation over the years.
The club members will refer newbies to the quarterly shows where out of town and vestpocket dealers gather instead.
On the other hand, in our previous city, the stamp stores had stellar reputations (we were one of them, btw) and got referrals from clubs and collectors across Canada.
The roadshow guys are looking for widows and orphans. They buy estate collections cheap and often resell to auction houses and other dealers at a decent profit.
Best advice for collectors : if there is substantial value in your collection have a written appraisal done by a dealer who is a member of one or more of the national hobby groups. Keep the signed, dated, on letterhead appraisal with your will. You may also want to indicate which dealer or auction house you believe will give your heirs the best deal on the collection.
A fellow Canadian here. So true what you say about the roadshow guys looking for widows and orphans. When I visited one of those type of events. I live in a small community north of Toronto, Ontario and they come up from the city regularly, because our locality is a veritable goldmine for treasures people don't realize they possess. I didn't take my best items to that show, just things that were purely melt value. I had done substantial research, which still does not make me any kind of expert. Just enough knowledge so they couldn't rip me off. The guys I dealt with figured out quickly that I would not be an easy target.
I paid attention to what was going on at the other tables, and how they were 'fluffing' around (to put it nicely) with some of the other visitors. At one point they were so full of it to one particularly naive couple, that I casually walked over and 'innocently' butted it, using my eyes and facial expressions to convey to the couple that they needed to walk away asap. They had jewelry and coins. Jewelry I know a thing or two about, and that's what the dealer was targetting. The dealers hurried me out of the building after that, but I met the couple in the parking lot and directed them to a reputable jeweller who could help them.
I've been in touch with a few reputable auction houses and dealers, but everyone seems to complain that the bottom has dropped out of the market, and the true collectors are few and far between...thus rock bottom values. I think the big, new shiny thing is the amazing and unique coin sets the Canadian Mint is churning out with great success. I watch TSC whenever the Coin Show is on because S. Bromberg always has a wealth of knowledge on the resale side. From the fact that they have brisk sales tells me that people are definitely still interested in collecting, old and new money.
11-29-2017 01:31 AM
@user7586954857 wrote:
I am a little uncertain about what you mean by: " eBay coin buyers are unwilling to accept these details as "truth",." These kinds of details can make or break a sale. Yes, whether a coin is cleaned or not is an opinion, but how much of LIBERTY is visible or if the rim is dinged is pretty objective.
I'm saying they'll typically bid well back of retail on raw coins, while graded coins bring more. Even if the photos are good. If the photos are poor, they'll bid even less.
If I'm saying it's "Fine", I'm saying it has 7 letters. If you can't see them in the photo, you shouldn't believe me. Not because they're not there (I do take a bad picture now and then), but because you don't know me from Adam, and there are lots of coins offered here as "full Liberty" or Fine that don't even have TWO letters. So I don't usually bother with that much detail in the description, you can see it yourself in the photos. As a buyer, the seller can say it's "Fine", but if the photo is small and blurry and about all I can be sure of is the rims aren't gone, all I'll bid is "Good" money.
I do call out rim dings, cleaning, or other damage, even though it's obvious in the photos - just to make sure they noticed it in the photo, and because I give grade opinions and "Fine" isn't the same as "Fine - obv. rim ding". I don't net grade, but some people do, so a picture ends up being worth 1000 words.
That said, as a buyer, I'm fine with a Description: coins. If the pictures are good, I'll figure out the rest of it on my own, which is what I'm going to do either way.
11-29-2017 01:40 AM
A verbal description can never take the place of a photo. However, photos can also deceive, depending upon lighting and angles.
LOL. I bought a '21 Peace Dollar here several years ago, at first I was convinced the seller sent a different coin. After looking at it a while, I was able to confirm it was the same coin as the photo, because of toning patterns and specific contact marks. It had a huge graffiti carved into the neck though, and there was no trick lighting... the seller simply photo-shopped it out! And he didn't mention it in the description either...
There are sellers who use reflective light, turn the contrast way up, and do other things to make coins look better in the pictures. Those guys are never going to mention the problems in the Descriptions either though.
11-29-2017 08:05 AM
"A picture is worth a thousand words".
Sellers don't need a thousand words but they certainly need some.
One of my top reasons for not bidding on something is when the sellers says "refer to the picture for condition. He's telling me I have to find the flaws because he won't admit to them. These sellers think that phrase has just eliminated any possible exposure to returns. Of course, we know the the real life meaning if eBay's Buyer Protection Policy is; Praise the Guilty, Punish the Innocent.
By having only the item picture(s) I view these listing as telling me I have to find the flaws.... no thanks.
11-29-2017 09:21 AM
Good info for coin collectors.
11-29-2017 09:48 AM
@duggmills wrote:"A picture is worth a thousand words".
Sellers don't need a thousand words but they certainly need some.
One of my top reasons for not bidding on something is when the sellers says "refer to the picture for condition. He's telling me I have to find the flaws because he won't admit to them. These sellers think that phrase has just eliminated any possible exposure to returns. Of course, we know the the real life meaning if eBay's Buyer Protection Policy is; Praise the Guilty, Punish the Innocent.
By having only the item picture(s) I view these listing as telling me I have to find the flaws.... no thanks.
My phrase is "refer to photos for an exact representation of what you will be receiving". That's sin-n-dex speak for "I'm sending you the one pictured" (not one of similar date/condition, etc).
I identify flaws, especially on more expensive coins where the little ding will greatly decrease the value, so there's no disappointment. On stuff I auction at 1.29 (which will fetch $3-5, just loose coins I assembled into groups for auction for my regulars who collect that), I don't bother to mention much, just that it's 5 coins from Sweden, and each coin holder is labelled as best as I can identify.
I now have to put a disclaimer that I don't read foreign languages and may not identify correctly (for instance on Arabic stuff, or Indian States, etc), because people were buying and requesting a return because they spent 1.29 and I mixed up the arabic date (or converted it incorrectly).
Cheers, C.