Buyer trying to scam me out of $3K

[Anonymous]

I'm a 25 year casual eBay seller. I generally sell mostly recycled computers, cameras and music gear. I've maintained a near perfect record during that time of positive feedback. 

Last week I sold a 2023 MacBook Pro For about $3k. Buyer msg'd me asking for details that were already in the pics and description. He purchased the machine and I sent it out that morning after notification that his funds had cleared. Item was shipped via UPS and arrived on Saturday. 

Today he msgs me and says that what I shipped wasn't as advertised. Then he proceeds to share images of a computer that wasn't what I shipped. I can't tell exactly, but it looks like a 2016-2018 MacBook Pro (it has a Touch Bar where mine did not), and now he's asking for a refund.

He's a relatively new user and has about a dozen positive feedbacks. From what I'm reading on these forums this type of scam is fairly common and it sounds like eBay doesn't protect their sellers. 

eBay sent a msg after the return was initiated to say that they were holding funds until this dispute is resolved, but I've already been paid out and cleared out the account eBay has access to. 

From what I've read in these forums, it sounds like eBay is going to side with the buyer regardless of his sketchiness and my stellar reputation. What's the recourse in these situations? 

[mam98031]

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@lakefor94 wrote:

Tough situation @Anonymous 

If you had offered Free Returns and the buyer sends back something other than what you sent, you could do a 50% refund and the buyer would have to hit eBay up for the other 50%.  

The experienced crooks stay away from accounts that offer Free Returns. They want the item and a 100% refund right away with not having to ask eBay for the other 50%.

Good luck on this return.

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They don't qualify for that process.

[mam98031]

And the listing purchased from has a No Return Policy.

[mam98031]

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@tools* wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

I refuse to be scammed out of $3k. I've already removed the money from the account eBay has access to. Apart from ruining my seller rating or suspending my account (which isn't much of a threat after this debacle, as I'm sure I'll never choose to sell on this site again) what can eBay do?

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It's probably time to walk away from eBay while you're ahead. Let them try to sue you and see what a judge thinks of their practices; and perhaps the media would find the story compelling.

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Ahead of what?  If Ebay deems the buyer should be refunded and the seller doesn't have the funds to do it with, Ebay will continue to go after the seller.  Ebay will get paid.

[gurlcat]

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@tools* wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

I refuse to be scammed out of $3k. I've already removed the money from the account eBay has access to. Apart from ruining my seller rating or suspending my account (which isn't much of a threat after this debacle, as I'm sure I'll never choose to sell on this site again) what can eBay do?

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It's probably time to walk away from eBay while you're ahead. Let them try to sue you and see what a judge thinks of their practices; and perhaps the media would find the story compelling.

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Why would a judge or media consumers believe the OP is not a scam seller who advertised a high-value laptop and shipped a cruddy one?   Because that could not happen?   Do you assume that all eBay sellers are good and honest, and any buyer who claims otherwise is the scammer?

Just some devil's advocacy here, but why do you believe the OP?  What evidence do you see that he's telling the truth?  Now picture yourself a judge, who wasn't even in the eBay Community forum and read the post in real time. 

[fbusoni]

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@gurlcat wrote:

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@tools* wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

I refuse to be scammed out of $3k. I've already removed the money from the account eBay has access to. Apart from ruining my seller rating or suspending my account (which isn't much of a threat after this debacle, as I'm sure I'll never choose to sell on this site again) what can eBay do?

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It's probably time to walk away from eBay while you're ahead. Let them try to sue you and see what a judge thinks of their practices; and perhaps the media would find the story compelling.

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Why would a judge or media consumers believe the OP is not a scam seller who advertised a high-value laptop and shipped a cruddy one?   Because that could not happen?   Do you assume that all eBay sellers are good and honest, and any buyer who claims otherwise is the scammer?

Just some devil's advocacy here, but why do you believe the OP?  What evidence do you see that he's telling the truth?  Now picture yourself a judge, who wasn't even in the eBay Community forum and read the post in real time. 

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Refreshing to see some analytical thinking.

Even if the judge did see the post in real time, it would not matter.  

There is almost certainly some legal precedent for this sort of case... I'd be interested to know what it is.

[gurlcat]

Association bias is a mighty thing. 
Check out this thread. -I'm surprised none of the commenters prior to me didn't dig slightly deeper.  I really can't make heads or tails of why the OP even started the thread.

https://community.ebay.com/t5/Selling/eBay-does-not-help-it-s-sellers/m-p/34825611#M2497909

[fbusoni]

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@Anonymous wrote:

Buyer msg'd me asking for details that were already in the pics and description. 

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@Anonymous 

Very sorry this happened to you.   

The sentence I have bolded above caught my attention.

To my mind, this sort of inquiry in and of itself is a huge red flag.

I have NEVER consummated a sale with any buyer who has ever sent me such a message.

On FB marketplace, the only buyers who send me such messages are those who then go on to ask for my phone number and are not serious.

For the last several years, immediately upon receipt of such messages, I have added such individuals to my eBay blocked buyer list.

I know that others here will say:  "Well, people don't read the description or look carefully at the photos."

To which I will say: those are not the sort of buyers I want purchasing from me, because even if they are honest and well meaning, they are sloppy and undisciplined.

The net result has been a very pleasant eBay selling experience for me.

[fbusoni]

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@gurlcat wrote:

Association bias is a mighty thing. 
Check out this thread. -I'm surprised none of the commenters prior to me didn't dig slightly deeper.  I really can't make heads or tails of why the OP even started the thread.

https://community.ebay.com/t5/Selling/eBay-does-not-help-it-s-sellers/m-p/34825611#M2497909

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Like so many others who post here, the author of that ^ thread seeks attention.  Does not matter if the attention is good or bad.

Lots of disturbed people sell on eBay, which has no quality control in the seller onboarding process, sadly.

[Anonymous]

In hindsight you are absolutely correct. I told the buyer when he asked that that my seller reputation and all the images of the computer were already on the listing and that if he wasn't comfortable with that, he shouldn't buy from me. He bought it anyway. That was the first red flag I missed.

The second was his feedback rating. I always check this before agreeing to a sale, and never sell to anyone with a zero or a handful of positive feedbacks. This person had 13. That seemed to clear a bar for me for trust, but clearly if you are a scammer and playing a long game, getting a dozen positive feedbacks from small sales doesn't take too long.

Third was the shipping address. Back in the day, with 'eBay Verified', you could be assured that if someone a verified address you were covered. The address given looked like an apartment with a unit #, but after using Google (I know, I should have done this before shipping), you can see it's a warehouse. 

So the scammer has my machine and will likely get my money because eBay's resolution team are a bunch of NPC's or AI that don't resolve anything. 

[Anonymous]

I can appreciate the skepticism after what I've gone thru. As to your question, all I have in my defense is:

1) Receipt for computer purchased that was sold. Bought directly from Apple in January of 2024.

2) Pictures of computer purchased that I made for the listing, along with serial numbers for verification.

3) Delivery verification from USPS with signature.

The buyer, on the other hand - 

1) doesn't live at the address he gave for shipment

2) Is claiming the machine was sent to a company called 'LiteMF' that is handling the transaction (How this alone doesn't cause eBay to side with me has me the most angry). State records show no such business existing, and definitely not at the address he gave.

3) Buyer is claiming images of machine that isn't what I sent were provided by LiteMF (said company that doesn't exist and isn't registered at address item was shipped to).

If there was a clearer example of fraud I couldn't come up with it. If I wasn't so devastated by being out $3k I'd actually be impressed with the scam. That eBay isn't recognizing this is a scam just blows me away, and really says to anyone - "here's a recipe to steal stuff on eBay and get away with it". 

[loose_goose_garage]

Have you spoken to eBay on the phone? I have never had good luck with emailing them, always just generic responses, but the times I have gotten them to actually take action on issues was always speaking to them on the phone, which isn't always an easy task to get a real human but once you do, it is much more productive.

[Anonymous]

One other thing - 

Apparently the company he says the computer was shipped to is real - https://litemf.com/en

At no time during the discussion before the transaction did buyer ask if I would sell to him using this service. Had he asked that I would have canceled the sale. How can eBay not deduce this is fraud when the buyer stealthily uses a 3rd party intermediary shipper and the shipper is the one claiming what was sent wasn't as advertised?

I've always avoided selling internationally because, well, fraud and hassle. I'm just floored that eBay would let a 3rd party company that facilitates international shipping be in the middle of transaction where that wasn't disclosed and where I specifically decided not to sell internationally.

[fbusoni]

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@Anonymous wrote:

In hindsight you are absolutely correct. I told the buyer when he asked that that my seller reputation and all the images of the computer were already on the listing and that if he wasn't comfortable with that, he shouldn't buy from me. He bought it anyway. That was the first red flag I missed.

The second was his feedback rating. I always check this before agreeing to a sale, and never sell to anyone with a zero or a handful of positive feedbacks. This person had 13. That seemed to clear a bar for me for trust, but clearly if you are a scammer and playing a long game, getting a dozen positive feedbacks from small sales doesn't take too long.

Third was the shipping address. Back in the day, with 'eBay Verified', you could be assured that if someone a verified address you were covered. The address given looked like an apartment with a unit #, but after using Google (I know, I should have done this before shipping), you can see it's a warehouse. 

So the scammer has my machine and will likely get my money because eBay's resolution team are a bunch of NPC's or AI that don't resolve anything. 

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@Anonymous 

I feel your pain... as others have noted, it's best to not sell anything on eBay that you cannot afford to lose in its entirety.

Just for the record, feedback scores and shipping addresses are -- in my personal experience anyway -- not solid indicators of buyer reliability.   

New eBay buyers with 0 feedback purchase from me regularly. 

And a Unit # can be a freight forwarder or a UPS mailbox.   I have shipped hundreds of items to both without any problem.

For me, the first step is to divine the psychology of the person who messages me.  The written word is very powerful in that way and can reveal much.

regards

[fbusoni]

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@Anonymous wrote:

One other thing - 

Apparently the company he says the computer was shipped to is real - https://litemf.com/en

At no time during the discussion before the transaction did buyer ask if I would sell to him using this service. Had he asked that I would have canceled the sale. How can eBay not deduce this is fraud when the buyer stealthily uses a 3rd party intermediary shipper and the shipper is the one claiming what was sent wasn't as advertised?

I've always avoided selling internationally because, well, fraud and hassle. I'm just floored that eBay would let a 3rd party company that facilitates international shipping be in the middle of transaction where that wasn't disclosed and where I specifically decided not to sell internationally.

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@Anonymous 

These sorts of courier services are used routinely by eBay buyers.

Buyers are not obligated to inform the seller of their location or what shipping service they intend to use.

The services themselves are rarely, if ever, at fault.   (Which is why Googling the location of a buyer's address often will not yield much useful information about the buyer.) 

It's the criminals who use these courier services... they are professionals who are looking at sellers who do not offer paid returns and who sell high value items.

[Anonymous]

I finally got a real human on the phone and went thru everything. He claims that when the swapped laptop is shipped back I can dispute the returned merchandise and be refunded. I'm skeptical of that given what I'm reading in the comments, but I'll let it play out. 

I'm pretty sure this is going to end up in small claims court. eBay has changed their policies to be so slanted towards buyers that they allow clear and easily identifiable fraud happen and they bank on sellers taking the L and moving on. I'm not moving on and will gladly spend well beyond what I may lose on this transaction on legal fees and time to hold them accountable. 

Crossing my fingers, but pretty much expecting to get screwed.