Buyer gave me + feedback but wants refund (he "changed his mind"). I don't allow returns.What to do?

[jaymalkin]

I shipped a delicate vintage electronic amplifier to the winning bidder who received it and gave me a Positive Feedback.  Now, he wants to return it (the only reason is that he "changed his mind").   I have a No Return policy since these items are delicate and will get damaged if not packed correctly should a buyer try to return it.   It takes me a long, long time to pack items like this and I don't think that I should have to accept his return request.

By the way, I'm in the US and the buyer is a "freight forwarder" acting on behalf of a person in Japan.  Apparently, the person in Japan "changed his mind" as mentioned above.   I don't ship outside the US, but many buyers of vintage electronics in Asia use "forwarding companies" based in the US  (the forwarding company buys the item, you ship it to the US address, and then the forwarding company ships it to the person in Japan who pays them for it).   I have no idea if the item is still in the US or if it actually made its way to Japan.   I don't accept refunds on vintage electronics just because of situations like this.   Are there any risks if I simply decline the refund?  Again, I already have positive feedback on this item.

[belleoftheprom]

@penguins_dont_fly

The OP said Paypal had a hold on his money, I thought on a return request (no snad) that the money wasn't held.

OP just deny the request but as has been said they can go to paypal and file.

[penguins_dont_fly]

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@sg51 wrote:

 How can the buyer make any kind of a claim that the item is "not as described" when I've already received positive feedback on the item? 

There are many factors to consider in this situation, but positive feedback is not among them.

Positive feedback has zero formal status in a SNAD case.

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Add to that ... the buyer is not claiming SNAD. They have opened a return with reason "changed mind".

OP is worrying about future repercussions if they deny the return.

1) Feedback is already positive, so that's off the table

2) PayPal SNAD can be fought with the current communications that say "remorse"

I only advocate accepting the return because, to me, it's just good customer service.  If the buyer was going to claim SNAD, they would have done so already. This is a big volume buyer and I am sure that they have returned SNAD items before now. 

They are also in the business of shipping. I am fairly sure that, even if the package was opened, they know how to pack.

JMO, I would not like to alienate this buyer and their thousands of Japanese customers ... you know that they have to keep some sort of blacklist, because it costs them time and money when there is a problem....but that's just me.

[d-k_treasures]

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@penguins_dont_fly wrote:

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@sg51 wrote:

 How can the buyer make any kind of a claim that the item is "not as described" when I've already received positive feedback on the item? 

There are many factors to consider in this situation, but positive feedback is not among them.

Positive feedback has zero formal status in a SNAD case.

---

Add to that ... the buyer is not claiming SNAD. They have opened a return with reason "changed mind".

OP is worrying about future repercussions if they deny the return.

1) Feedback is already positive, so that's off the table

2) PayPal SNAD can be fought with the current communications that say "remorse"

I only advocate accepting the return because, to me, it's just good customer service.  If the buyer was going to claim SNAD, they would have done so already. This is a big volume buyer and I am sure that they have returned SNAD items before now. 

They are also in the business of shipping. I am fairly sure that, even if the package was opened, they know how to pack.

JMO, I would not like to alienate this buyer and their thousands of Japanese customers ... you know that they have to keep some sort of blacklist, because it costs them time and money when there is a problem....but that's just me.

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I agree - and I also sell with 'no returns'. If they received the request before they processed the package, it may not have even been opened yet - so if your packaging can withstand the shipping, you should get it back in the exact same condition. Sometimes it's just good customer service to take the return when the buyer is honest about it.

One thing to consider is that they put your listing up on their site, with you as the seller. So if a japanese buyer goes there they can check your listings and buy more - the 'flight' or 'shopamerica' reshippers do not steal your thunder by hiding the real seller.

[sg51]

 By the way, Paypal has placed a "hold" on the funds that I received for this transaction which I don't understand since I did receive a message from Ebay saying that I'm not obligated to give him a refund.

They do that while a formal case is open.

Some posters to this thread, not all, have missed that nuance.  

I take it that buyer has not filed the case as SNAD, hence the note stating that a refund is not required.  However, this needs to be confirmed.  The case has a reason for requested return, and if that reason is "not as described", that's a whole different, much more perilous path.

For a simple non-SNAD return request when the item was sold with no returns, the refund can be declined without fear of the Big Defect.  That doesn't absolutely end the story, of course.  Buyer might be able to take a couple more swings with PP or with his credit card company.

[penguins_dont_fly]

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@sg51 wrote:

 By the way, Paypal has placed a "hold" on the funds that I received for this transaction which I don't understand since I did receive a message from Ebay saying that I'm not obligated to give him a refund.

They do that while a formal case is open.

Some posters to this thread, not all, have missed that nuance.  

I take it that buyer has not filed the case as SNAD, hence the note stating that a refund is not required.  However, this needs to be confirmed.  The case has a reason for requested return, and if that reason is "not as described", that's a whole different, much more perilous path.

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Holds are placed on ANY return request, not just SNAD. PayPal doesn't want to have to chase a seller down for refunds, SNAD or remorse. There are many anecdotal posts on the boards confirming this...And I can confirm it personally. The few return requests that I have had over the past few years, both SNAD and Remorse have resulted in a PayPal hold...And I have a return policy.

The hold will be released when the return is closed either by return with refund or denial of the request.

[retrose1]

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@d-k_treasures wrote:

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@penguins_dont_fly wrote:

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@sg51 wrote:

 How can the buyer make any kind of a claim that the item is "not as described" when I've already received positive feedback on the item? 

There are many factors to consider in this situation, but positive feedback is not among them.

Positive feedback has zero formal status in a SNAD case.

---

Add to that ... the buyer is not claiming SNAD. They have opened a return with reason "changed mind".

OP is worrying about future repercussions if they deny the return.

1) Feedback is already positive, so that's off the table

2) PayPal SNAD can be fought with the current communications that say "remorse"

I only advocate accepting the return because, to me, it's just good customer service.  If the buyer was going to claim SNAD, they would have done so already. This is a big volume buyer and I am sure that they have returned SNAD items before now. 

They are also in the business of shipping. I am fairly sure that, even if the package was opened, they know how to pack.

JMO, I would not like to alienate this buyer and their thousands of Japanese customers ... you know that they have to keep some sort of blacklist, because it costs them time and money when there is a problem....but that's just me.

---

I agree - and I also sell with 'no returns'. If they received the request before they processed the package, it may not have even been opened yet - so if your packaging can withstand the shipping, you should get it back in the exact same condition. Sometimes it's just good customer service to take the return when the buyer is honest about it.

One thing to consider is that they put your listing up on their site, with you as the seller. So if a japanese buyer goes there they can check your listings and buy more - the 'flight' or 'shopamerica' reshippers do not steal your thunder by hiding the real seller.

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I disagree with accepting the return.

The reshippers are looking to conserve space and so they have been known to open and strip out secondary boxes and padding in order to make the package smaller and more compact to save space and get more in the cargo container.  I personally have never had a problem with that  - but I ship clothing to japan and do it making my FR padded envelope look like a football, I think they might be afraid to open it.

But once it got into the hands of the reshipper, then condition is up in the air.  And as we have seen hundreds of times, the more an electronic is handled, the more potential of damage there is.   That is why once it got into the hands of the reshipper ebay's Money Back Guarantee is gone.

And again, the Japanese are pretty honorable and I have never known them to file a fake claim.  I believe that  if the OP is polite and upfront about why they are not accepting returns on the item, the buyer in Japan might understand and accept the item - since it is on it's way.

And hey, whose to say that once it gets there the buyer will not have a change of heart since it looks pretty cool.

And the operative word when I say that I have shipped to Japan a lot - is the word HAVE.  When the tsunami hit and destroyed their reactor, I went from shipping awesome vintage there 3 - 5 times a week down to maybe once every couple of months.  Their economy took a hit because of the thousands that were displaced and the people reevaluated what was important to them and for many, it was rebuilding lives and not spending on trinkets of the past.  I doubt that not bending over for a buyer will make as big an impact as it would have 10 years ago.

And personally I agree with the OP's attitude that buyers need to take some responsibility for their decisions and actions.  Buyers need to make a decision and stick with it, instead of expecting that everyone will drop everything on their whim.  That is not good customer service - that is being a doormat.  Good customer service was shipping quickly and packing carefully and describing in detail.

[penguins_dont_fly]

I'm skipping the quotes to conserve space 🙂

The real question here is whether or not the item was ever even opened to be repacked. And if it was, did it actually leave the reshippers.

I am pretty sure that the item in question is this one (buyer feedback # is huge, indicating the reshipper, plus it is right up a Japanese collector's alley)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-UNIQUE-VINTAGE-RCA-VICTOR-STEREO-TUBE-AMP-AMPLIFIER-CLEAN-NICE-LOOKING-...

Item sold on August 6

I can't tell what the OP's handling time is, but it shipped Economy from Colorado to (I assume) California. When I put 94102 (San Fran) into the listing it gives me an estimated delivery of August 29 if purchased today (August 17) ... that's 10 business days.

So with a 1 day handling, it would have shipped Monday August 7, with an estimated delivery of August 19...2 days from now.

The OP has not said when it was delivered, but it could not have been that long ago to where the item was repacked, reshipped and already on the way to Japan (and definitely hasn't gotten to Japan if it was).

[kattinsanity]

OP didn't say who the "remorse" message came from~~the buyer in Japan or the freight forwarder?  OP also didn't state who actually bought the item~~the buyer in Japan or the freight forwarder buying on behalf of the Japan buyer?  That would make a big difference if a case was opened through pay pal.  I'm sure pay pal would take ebays buyer protection policy into consideration concerning no buyer protection when a buyer uses a forwarder to ship the item from the USA to Japan.  I also believe the OP's message proving buyer remorse would be taken into consideration should the buyer open a SNAD case. 

I've only had 1 case opened through pay pal~~a SNAD case claiming something was missing~~that case was ruled in MY favor.  The buyer was asking for the drip tray for a vintage Ronco dehydrator.  No drip tray was ever even made for that item so it was impossible for me to supply one.  Pay pal seemed to spend more time and investigate claims more closely than ebay does.  It was a guest buyer so she had no ebay buyer protection so couldn't open an ebay claim.

[penguins_dont_fly]

Kattin ... the OP does not have a buyer in Japan. OP is dealing with one of the "usaflight" type services. The service has the buyer in Japan. OP's buyer is the service.

The only person the message could have come from is the service. There is no contact between the seller and  the end receiver in this type of transaction.

[jaymalkin]

Thanks to everyone who responded to my situation.   OK, here's what happened.  I first contacted Ebay and the person who I talked to was a specialist in "return" issues and seemed to be very well-informed about these kinds of situations.    She said that the buyer was being very unfair in this case since the auction specified "No Returns".   She told me that, if I decline the return, Ebay will close the case and no other cases can ever be opened again involving this item including a "Not As Described" case, so my situation involving Ebay is resolved (I declined the return as discussed more below).

Regarding Paypal, I also spoke with a person who seemed quite informed on problems like this.   She did state that, while the buyer "could" open a case for "Not As Described", etc. she told me twice that I would win the case based on the evidence that I could submit in my favor.   This evidence would include both the Positive Feedback  that I received (which she said DOES make a difference - after all, why would a buyer give Positive Feedback for an item that is truly "Not As Described" or damaged) and the letter from the buyer which stated "I changed my mind" as the only grounds for a return (I read her the letter). 

So, I sent the buyer a long message and declined the return.  Here is the message that I sent:

Thanks for your message about the amp. I’m sorry that you changed your mind. Unfortunately, I can't accept a return of the amp for these reasons:
1. My auction clearly stated that “No Returns” were allowed.
2. I spent 3 hours carefully packing the amp, taking it to the Post Office, waiting in line etc. Amps are difficult to pack (I double-boxed it, separately wrapped each glass tube etc.) If you returned it, I would need to unwrap it to inspect for damage & go through the whole packing & shipping process all over again to resell it.
3. Vintage amps do not sell well if they are re-listed on Ebay due to a return. 
4.Each time an amp is shipped, it can get damaged. If you returned the amp & it got damaged, I would have to go through the long process of filing a claim.
5.Allowing a return because you changed your mind is unfair to the other bidders who got outbid by you.
So, for these reasons, I cannot accept a return of the amp. I trust that you will understand my position in this matter.

I don't sell on Ebay for a living or anything like that, it's just something that I do from time to time for fun as part of my hobby.  I could have easily allowed the return, but not in a case like this.    Based on the message from the buyer, he (or she) seems nice but asking for a return under the circumstances of this case is just outrageous.    There seems to be a trend in this country to "back down" when confronted with a problem - I'm not going to back down in this case.  If the buyer files a claim with Paypal, I'll fight it all the way.   I'm a retired senior citizen and have plenty of time  for this kind of thing!  (although I would prefer that it didn't happen).    My test for situations like this is:  "Would I feel right about asking for a return under the circumstances listed above if I was the buyer?"  My answer is that I never even considered asking for a return involving a nice and undamaged and accurately-described item if the auction specified "No Returns".  Rules are rules.   That's it and thanks for your input. 

[retrose1]

".   She told me that, if I decline the return, Ebay will close the case and no other cases can ever be opened again involving this item including a "Not As Described" case,

That is not true. 

She did state that, while the buyer "could" open a case for "Not As Described", etc. she told me twice that I would win the case based on the evidence that I could submit in my favor.   This evidence would include both the Positive Feedback  that I received (which she said DOES make a difference -

That is barely true.  You might win the case, but proof that ebay/paypal would accept is hard to find.  And since paypal and ebay are seperate companies now, paypal doesn't have to look at anything on ebay and recently they have not bothered to look - so positive feedback will not be considered in just about all cases.

While your message to the buyer is a little too wordy for my tastes, I think it might work out for you.  As I said, I have never had a problem with a Japanese buyer in hundreds of transactions.

[jaymalkin]

I realize my message to the buyer was a bit long, but I wanted to spell out everything in detail for both the buyer and Paypal/Ebay if, down the road, I need them to see the letter that I sent.   If I end up losing this case for some reason, then I would need to ask Ebay what is the purpose of having a "No Return" option if it can be so easily circumvented and overcome by a buyer just by saying "Not as Described" or some other unsupported claim?

[plumbingspecials]

Do not accept the return.

[jaymalkin]

Hi - I didn't accept the return (check out my longer message on p. 2 of this thread).    One interesting note - when I declined to accept the return, I noticed that the "block" on my funds was immediately removed.   I should find something cool to bid on and spend it all right away.  HAHA  -   just joking.

[retrose1]

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@jaymalkin wrote:

I realize my message to the buyer was a bit long, but I wanted to spell out everything in detail for both the buyer and Paypal/Ebay if, down the road, I need them to see the letter that I sent.   If I end up losing this case for some reason, then I would need to ask Ebay what is the purpose of having a "No Return" option if it can be so easily circumvented and overcome by a buyer just by saying "Not as Described" or some other unsupported claim?

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So many ask what is the point of having no returns.  I personally believe it is ebay's way of letting sellers - especially newbies think that they have control over their ebay business.  ebay is very manipulative at times and ebay wants new sellers to believe that ebay is everything they think it is, all easy to dump their stuff and make loads of cash.  About the third high dollar item, they learn otherwise.

And also, you would not believe how many newbies come here fighting tooth and nail against the dispute that has been opened against them and they believe that they have no returns and so that means no refunds and sure enough, 5 days later they are even more angry that ebay gave the buyer their money back because they wouldn't believe that ebay policies trumps their attitude.