Buyer claimed they received empty package...Is there any way to protect against this situation?

[pritcha6]

Recently I have been reading through the forum quite a bit and found there are many people that experienced similar circumstances to what I did a while ago...

A buyer purchased an item from me (t shirt). I shipped it. They claimed that when they received it that it was torn open. They suggested it had been tampered with or stolen. They also said that the package was filled with large bubbles. I have never shipped a t-shirt with large bubbles. I ship all my t shirts in plastic ziplock bags to water-seal them against the elements. The buyer claiming there were bubbles inside made my spidey senses tingle. The buyer filed a claim. I called the actual USPS location that delivered the package. Spoke to a gentleman who assured me that if the package was delivered without the contents, they would mark it as such. He even went so far as to say "between you and me that package was delivered as you sent it." I also called ebay customer service while the case was open. They said there was nothing I could do until the buyer submitted more documentation/claim with USPS I would imagine.) I was told to be patient and that I could call back in a weeks time or so to check in on the case.

Throughout the process I was very diplomatic with the buyer and ebay. I was even reassured at one point by customer service that a decision would not be made without notifying me. That put me at ease. Then one morning out of the blue I received a notification on my phone stating that money had been moved from my paypal and that I had refunded a buyer. I called ebay, my call was elevated to "the highest authority on the matter," and I asked why they sided with the buyer without even consulting me first. I had the USPS employee's statement in my back pocket and I was hoping to debunk the claim with ebay once they notified me about next steps. However, after telling the woman on the phone about my conversation with USPS, she said that there was nothing more to be done and it is what it is. I asked what information was given that resulted in the case closing so abruptly. The representative said that she could not reveal why they sided with the buyer for the buyer's own protection. I was absolutely baffled. It made me wonder how serious a claim they made with me. And what level of authority they had involved.

The package was valuable, worth about $200. So this buyer definitely had motive to commit fraud in my opinion. Also, I went to the buyer's page, and they resell the very same item that they bought from me that they claimed they hadn't received. Coincidence? Doubt it. Regardless, I waited a while and called appeals to see if there was anything more I could do. I stated again to the appeals rep that I personally spoke on the phone with the local USPS facility and that an employee assured me that the package was delivered as sent. (Funny side note: I asked the USPS employee to put their statement in writing, they refused.) I was told again there was nothing they could do. And that if I wanted to, I could use the buyer's personal information in their ebay profile to file a report with the police. Has anyone done this and seen a positive result?

It's been a while since this situation happened, but as I said I started reading similar cases on the forum here and it got me thinking. My question is...how is it possible for the buyer to win this case when they provided no proof whatsoever? Yet I had confirmed delivery (with contents) and verbal USPS statement? Ebay has to know that there are people committing fraud, and I would bet a lot of these cases look and sound very similar.

Beyond the case itself, does anyone know if there is any way to prevent this type of fraudulent claim, period? I myself asked USPS about insurance and they said even if I had insurance in this scenario, that they delivered the package WITH the contents and that there was no evidence to dispute otherwise. And that insurance would not cover the time inbetween the package being delivered and the buyer opening it. So they wouldn't be liable regardless. So then what the heck is insurance for?

Hoping to figure out how to prevent this in the future if possible. Also hoping an ebay representative will see this and have some compassion. And perhaps shed some light on how to protect yourself / argue a better defense  as a seller (aside from blocking them).

[femmefan1946]

There are third party insurers.  For high value collectibles we have a contract with Hugh Wood Insurance International (London, New York, Toronto) who are the insurers for the American Philatelic Society.

They will insure your stock in a shop, in transit, at stores, during mailing, and against fire, water, and shoptheft.

This of course is shoptheft.

However, if you just sell occasionally, the annual contract may be more than you need. We had a full-time B&M with 10 employees plus an international public auction.  But check them out, because they also insure collectors.

They specialize in stamp collecting ,but they do coins, postcards, sportscards, music collections (recordings and instruments) and wines.  Pretty well any collectible.

Report the shoptheft to the USPS and to his local police. Get report numbers.

Tell him that you have opened the USPS inspection and ask him politely to cooperate with the inspectors.

It may not do you any good, but either or both could be building a case.

[sam9876]

You lose, sorry.

[boscobosco12]

hi---There was a post by someone  a few years ago. This seller ebay emailed the buyer when the buyer first complained.  Seller wrote that the package was full when shipped and that it must have been stolen along the way.  Seller would ask postal inspector to start an investigation.  Maybe it was the mail carrier or someone else in post office.  Please keep all packaging.  The inspector will want to collect it and interview you.  Seller would also contact buyer's local police to start a theft investigation.  Seller also said that seller did not like to be stolen from and did not like their buyer to be stolen from.  It could have been a porch theft.  Seller never accused buyer.  Buyer emailed back that there was a mistake.  A child opened it first and had the item. 

[terrycanarsky]

With eBay, there is no real "seller protection" when it comes to a buyer's claim vs. (possible) reality - regardless of what the Help page vaguely proclaims.  It does not matter if you have a written statement from USPS if the buyer refutes that statement to eBay.  It does not matter if you have photos of serial numbers, condition, the listing does a spectacular job of describing the condition which the buyer states as the reason they're returning, etc.  eBay sides with the buyer (though in a few cases, the money comes out of eBay's pocket, not the seller's).  eBay itself will not stand behind you unless there is a serious, compelling reason - and eBay's idea of reason is not necessarily the same as yours or mine.

All you can do is be as honest and forthright as possible in your business practices.  Most buyers do the same, only a few are thieves.

~M

[scrappy-6818]

" With eBay, there is no real "seller protection" when it comes to a buyer's claim vs. (possible) reality - regardless of what the Help page vaguely proclaims.  It does not matter if you have a written statement from USPS if the buyer refutes that statement to eBay.  It does not matter if you have photos of serial numbers, condition, the listing does a spectacular job of describing the condition which the buyer states as the reason they're returning, etc.  eBay sides with the buyer (though in a few cases, the money comes out of eBay's pocket, not the seller's).  eBay itself will not stand behind you unless there is a serious, compelling reason - and eBay's idea of reason is not necessarily the same as yours or mine.

All you can do is be as honest and forthright as possible in your business practices.  Most buyers do the same, only a few are thieves."

ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON, in EVERY respect. I especially agree with "and eBay's idea of reason is not necessarily the same as yours or mine" 

It's a done deal...eBay will & do back the buyer (thief or not) ONE HUNDRED PERCENT, it's "eBay policy".

You can forget the pathetic links to some phony protection, it's all just for show...an eBay A SS covering exercise...looks great in print, but in reality...the real world, it's not worth the ink used to print em out.  

And yet, we still see some of our fellow members SWEAR by them.

A great "platform", eBay has alway's had problems with some sellers & buyers... it's human nature, but the biggest problem we have is with eBay POLICY, and the way it favours buyers...no matter what.

I say that policy STINKS. 

[vintagecraze50]

If you have the time or inclination to do so. Do file the police report. If anything it may or may not stop the thief from doing it again. I do like femme's suggestions with the insurance company she noted for high value collectibles for people who sell such things in a world of ocassional internet thieves.  They prey on people on the internet becuase it is sooo easy with these return policies and policies enforced by these websites.

[vintagecraze50]

Well then, there are a lot of stinky policies out there besides Ebay's, some are stinkier. Use febreeze. LOL.

[lunalapin1912]

On Youtube, there are videos of the equipment packages go through. You need to package to withstand the machinery and the other packages. Chances are the item was removed while going through the machinery or when a 50 lb box fell on it. Contact the post office and file a missing item report. The post office will investigate and if they can find the item, send it back to you. My husband once ordered a ten lb box of spent brass (bullet casings) and the package arrived with a big hole in it and no casings. I filed the report and the post office swept up all bullets and sent them to us. Some were the ones we ordered, but there was live ammo in it and other sizes of casings. This was before the MBG and the seller was not responsible for anything more than dropping it into the mail.

[scrappy-6818]

@vintagecraze50 believes

"Well then, there are a lot of stinky policies out there besides Ebay's, some are stinkier. Use febreeze. LOL."

Are you a would-be comedian  @vintagecraze50 me ol mucker  well, friendly word of advice?, Don't give up your day job 

That said, yer not wrong...Gumtree  AKA eBay Mk2

[futuretomorrow]

@pritcha6

"how is it possible for the buyer to win this case when they provided no proof whatsoever? "

It's a well known fact that the most popular shopping experience in the world will issue you a return label, no questions asked for any reason. I was discussing this in office with a co-worker just the other day. I mentioned to him that eBay has moved towards this model and it's crushing small sellers because we can't afford to have items stolen from us, returned used etc. 

eBay is doing everything in their power to copy that platforms experience and no questions asked returns and refunds are a large part of what that other company does. Funny enough, they bought Zappo's which was the king of this and helped to usher in the trend in online and then B&M stores. Stores like IKEA. Next we'll be hearing about "lifetime returns, even if worn". 

Someone will close the loop of new>worn marketplace>thrift/vintage if it hasn't been done already and it's finally game over for retail as we know it and small sellers. Someone please tell me I'm drunk off of coffee and that this will never happen...

[robot-hands]

A smallish package like yours holding a t-shirt with missing contents is usually bagged and labeled with a large orange or white sticker.

Ask to see it....you know to rule it out as part of the "insurance claim"

[futuretomorrow]

@pritcha6

This response from @terrycanarsky is your answer. We all learn eventually that eBay's seller protection is not what it used to be and in some instances actually promotes theft and bad behavior from the few dishonest thieves out there. 

I no longer call eBay expecting them to do anything in my favor. If the effort eBay puts into other areas is as bad as how they handle cases then nothing is really done and no real resources are thrown at the problem. I remember reporting a buyer who would not stop swearing at me profusely and being told they would be dealt with in the strictest sense. Two days later she orders the same item again, with the same problem, meaning I've have to cancel her order yet again and be subjected to a profane laced message. eBay never banned or gave her a time out that I'm aware of.

Now consider if you use the word "invoice" in an email your account is flagged or the message can't even be sent, here you get a time out from an admin or booted out the community but a buyer can use profanity to no end and nothing will happen to them.

[castlemagicmemories]

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@vintagecraze50 wrote:

Well then, there are a lot of stinky policies out there besides Ebay's, some are stinkier. Use febreeze. LOL.

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[emerald40]

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@castlemagicmemories wrote:

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@vintagecraze50 wrote:

Well then, there are a lot of stinky policies out there besides Ebay's, some are stinkier. Use febreeze. LOL.

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Only if you are tring to make it stink even more.