Beware eBay handling of INR cases

[jovmil-67]

Warning to Sellers about current handling by eBay on INR cases. First off, I'm aware of how these would normally be handled, what to do when one is opened, and how it will be resolved. Normally. It's obvious to all at this point, buyers and sellers, that there have been delays in shipping, misrouted items and  items "in transit" for sometimes over a month. That is, to anyone that has turned on their TV in the past 3 months, or if you're eBay. I could make this a short rant, but I want to add in the events that have been surrounding this cluster of INRs, which leads me to this early AM post.

Apparently, eBay is sticking with the "We don't see any shipping delays and therefore all good" (my words) line under their "Additional support during COVID-19 for buyers and sellers on eBay" article, even thought he big red header banner on the USPS website says otherwise. Granted, most items seem to be on time or within a few days of delivery dates, but there ARE MAJOR distribution center closures and disruptions. Mail is being sent, and held, in distribution centers states away and just lingering in the system as "in-transit". These packages all seem to be eventually jarred lose and delivered, but they can be up to weeks late. I've waited over a MONTH for USPS Priority Mail to be delivered to me on a commercial rate package. Most of these delays seem to be in the upper Midwest (Detroit/Chicago area) and all along the Eastern seaboard (Mass/NJ/NY) in particular, but down to Florida as well.

International shipping for me has taken a hit in delays as well, with 3 transactions in as many days, being brought to my attention as being severely delayed by a month or more to Australia. One was over 2 months old and was promptly refunded without asking the buy to open a case. The second, a day later, was an INR case and was immediately refunded. The third is still being addressed. In all cases, the items were last scanned leaving the US so it was presumed by all parties, including the USPS, that the Australian post office or customs was holding inbound mail up. No problem, I just stopped selling to Australia until things iron out. Can't afford that mess.

Now, I get another INR opened on the same day I was dealing with the 3rd Australia issue, and a day after I just refunded the other two transactions. This one from a buyer in New Hampshire. Last scan was "in-transit" on the 23rd of May out of Florida, which was the day he was promised the item by eBay. He gave it 5 days before he opened the case. I responded to him that there were delays all up and down the east coast and would look into it as he requested in his comments.

This is when I called eBay for guidance as it is obvious, there are delays piling up and there needs to be some extended handling or shipping times adjusted into the transactions. I get a nice lady in the UK (I guess the US and Philippine centers are down or overworked. Gee, I wonder why?). She looked at all my recent activity and thanked me for doing the refunds on the two Australian transactions, but that in future cases, including the current one I was calling about, they (eBay) are allowing for "30 days" from purchase to be delivered, and that if a buyer escalates a case, this would be explained to them. I took her word.

3 days later, buyer escalates, and case closed by eBay immediately in buyer's favor, money refunded back out of PayPal and item still in transit and will be delivered. Obviously feeling duped, I called CS back immediately, again getting the UK. I explain what I was told, he sees that it's still in transit and explains that since the case was already closed (while of course not even discussing the last CS's guidance regarding the extended allowance for delivery, which I now believe was false information), that I would have 30 days to appeal the decision and when the item shows up as delivered, to file that appeal. He also informed me that he would have someone call me "within the hour, if not within the day" to further discus the case. Never happened. That was on the 4th. This morning, at 2:47 AM CST, I get an alert on my phone of an eBay message stating that my appeal was CLOSED. WHAT APPEAL?

Getting out of bed and checking the case, it said that I sent them an appeal on the 6th (within the past 3 hours while I was asleep). I did not. This was opened and closed in the wee hours of the night by someone obviously overseas, my guess in the UK.

So now I get a defect, told two things that weren't true, lose the item and have the money taken out of my account, all for something everybody should be aware to what, why and how it is happening. I would have just refunded the buyer right off if I had not been told by the first CS that they are handling these cases with the buyer out to 30 days. Is this a policy in the UK that she mistakenly advised to me as a seller in the US?

WHO opened and closed an appeal in the middle of the night? And WHY? I am now shut out of actually opening an appeal when this item shows delivered.

I've NEVER had a case escalated and I sure didn't APPEAL this one as of yet. Someone is railroading these cases though and then shutting down appeals by falsely opening one internally. Be aware of it from here on out.

And eBay, quit pretending there isn't a shipping issue with USPS, THERE IS. I can't tell you how much of a disappointment and runaround this is. A defect? A false appeal? Over an INR during this time, with everything that is going on in the WORLD right now. And in the middle of the night.

Hope this isn't how you are going to run Managed Payments?

[eunster1313]

Case for "NOT RECEIVED

https://community.ebay.com/t5/Q-A-COVID-19/Case-for-quot-NOT-RECEIVED-quot/qaq-p/30891850 

[bbravo65]

...this general information particularly does not apply to the OP specific situation...

..."the right hand does not know what the left hand doing" is what to explain for so many conflicts that eBay incapable CS created to both buyers and sellers...

...again self-protection is what sellers have to step-up to guard their own interest...evidently, seller can't rely on eBay CS at all as either they (CS) don't bother to review updated eBay policies, or simply just being too lazy to carefully listen  to both parties when they were contacted, and then throw out any false advises without conscience...

...for USPS in regarding of delayed in transit and delivery occur due to the short of workers on hand as several were tested positive to the current virus, the new hiring program is stalled, changes in operating system projects, service hours is interrupted, on top of that some locations were looted and destroyed by currently protesting...their on-hand employees (clerks, carriers) have been mandated to work at least 10 hours/day since March and so many workers were already worn out as physical and mentally injuries...

[vintagecraze50]

In addition Tyler, people can start a trace report on their packages if they are really delayed and in many cases these packages get delivered very quickly after that. We have had a few like that and the trace got them moving and delivered the next day.

[vcbjtk0]

omg there's so much here, I can't mentally address them all as it will only confuse things further.

So here's the skinny version:

IF a buyer opens an INR then it is the sellers job to enter tracking information into the case.

- If the item's tracking shows delivered before the deadline then the seller wins.

* Should this tracking not show delivery and the buyer escalates the case then the buyer wins.

***Appeals process:

** If the buyer wins the INR the seller has up to 30 days to WAIT until the tracking shows delivery and if that happens then (and only then) should the seller APPEAL the case WITH the tracking information that shows delivery.

[postingid7659]

Presumably if your shipment is insured and does vanish you can submit a claim for it.

[jovmil-67]

Thank you to all who replied. I've slept most of the day as I let this upset me all night and into the morning so just wanted to update. I did contact eBay again, in Ireland (I've erroneously been referring to them as the UK, and got an polite lecture on the difference). Seems they are the ones handling these return cases at the moment. Was on the phone with CS for 1 hour and 23 minutes. Very friendly, but nothing was accomplished. I want to stress, I have no problem issuing a refund and then filing an appeal when item is delivered. All my items are shipped via eBay Labels so there are tracking numbers on every item. My first post explains why that wasn't done in THIS case. The rest of it has been a mess.

My issue at the moment, is the APPEAL. The appeal was opened at 12:45 AM this morning, and closed immediately. I was NOT the one who opened the appeal, as I was waiting for the tracking to show delivered in that 30 day time frame. I was asleep. The CS could see the appeal being opened, but get this, he said it was done by the BUYER!?? WHAT?  I don't know what is going on, but someone at eBay is opening the appeal process and closing them, thereby shutting out any way to get eBay to reverse the buyer's refund when the item shows delivered. Again, I was told I would be getting a call today, but of course, did not. It is the weekend so I'll try again Monday. I also noticed the defect was placed on my account when the APPEAL was "opened" and closed, not at the time the case was escalated and closed in buyer favor 2 days ago. CSR and I agreed, all I can do right now is wait for the tracking to show delivered and then call back in to see if they will reopen or allow me to reopen an appeal. Right now, their policy is it's a done deal. I'm out the money, the item, got a defect and had the appeal pulled out from under me, cancelling out any chance of getting my money back.

For those that pointed out just making the refund and doing the appeal later, that's what I'll be doing. There is NO sense in trying to discuss with the buyer, waiting a few extra days. This buyer even stated in the INR case that he wanted the item, not the money, but even that wasn't taken into consideration when he escalated it. Apparently eBay does NOT take these as a case by case and does not read ANY of the messages in the case before they close an escalation as has been pointed out that they would. It's just not true. Nor do they give any consideration to extending delivery times in hit areas, even though you can go to the USPS website and get a State by State update and Country by Country update of delayed, suspended and closed facilities and service.

Good luck out there.

[paul01607]

Unfortunately,  eBay thinks there isn't a problem with logistics:

"Carriers and shipping companies are considered an essential service right now and there has been minimal disruption to date." I've had 2 items, both going to CALIF from the east coast that track as "In Transit, Arriving Late with a no-movement status since June 11th.

[baigsel-0]

It is my understanding all of these cases are handled as follows:

- Initiating or opening the case itself is done through human interaction.

- Escalation is either through human interaction or timeout.

- Decisions in cases are handled by robots, it has become increasingly difficult to get human interaction here and even then the outcome isn't guaranteed.

It is in ways better to have the case decided by bots as the outcome becomes predictable.

Calls to CS are a roll of the dice, in ways of the outcome the goose is wild and the moose is loose, certainly it wouldn't hurt to be prepared for a stampede of wildebeests. Anything goes, rien ne va plus!

From what I have learned the most likely scenario for that appeal is the CS opened it, probably trying to be helpful... The reason the appeal was instantly declined is robots, the software saw immediately the tracking did not show the item to be delivered and thus the appeal was closed, there was no human interaction in that part of the process.  However the CS was likely aware of the outcome, either way it makes no difference, the real issue here is calling the CS has resulted in a wild outcome.

It has also been the conclusion of months of research and at times personal experience that this is how INR cases normally would flow:

- Buyer opens INR as early as the next day past last estimated delivery date.

- Seller has FIVE days to enter tracking but only IF the tracking shows delivery will the case be found in the seller's favor, here is where things get tricky...

The seller has to decide before the case times out whether or not to issue a refund.

- Should the seller issue a refund before the case times out ebay issues no defect and there is no appeal.

- Should the seller allow the case to time out ebay will force the refund and issue a defect but the seller may appeal for 30 days as follows:

If an appeal is opened during those 30 days AND the tracking does NOT show delivered then the appeal will close and that is the end of the story.

** Therefore it would be in the seller's best interest to wait until tracking shows delivery.

- Once tracking shows delivered and the seller opens the appeal, then and only then would the bots most likely find in the seller's favor, the defect is removed and...

We're unclear as of yet if the money would be refunded to the seller as well, after all if they already gave the buyer the money then the only thing left to do would be a courtesy refund...

Possible, but we haven't got that far with these INR cases yet.

The issue of course is the crucial decision point on the day the case is to time out.

Do we issue the refund and avoid the defect with no chance to appeal?

Or do we await the case to timeout, the inevitable escalation and defect and be forced to refund but stand a chance to appeal?
It all hinges on whether that package will actually show up, too...

[creoleorchid · Accepted solution]

@jovmil-67 

Picking this paragraph  out of your OP, I think I see what happened.

 days later, buyer escalates, and case closed by eBay immediately in buyer's favor, money refunded back out of PayPal and item still in transit and will be delivered. Obviously feeling duped, I called CS back immediately, again getting the UK. I explain what I was told, he sees that it's still in transit and explains that since the case was already closed (while of course not even discussing the last CS's guidance regarding the extended allowance for delivery, which I now believe was false information), that I would have 30 days to appeal the decision and when the item shows up as delivered, to file that appeal. He also informed me that he would have someone call me "within the hour, if not within the day" to further discus the case. Never happened. 

I think either that rep you spoke with or the "someone" who was supposed to call you within the hour actually opened an appeal on your behalf, possibly thinking it would somehow fix the situation for you. Or they just wanted you to go away. I hope it's the former.

Then I think the system either closed it or whoever did it thought better of it and tried to cancel it. The time difference would explain the middle of the night transaction.

Whatever happened, it sucks big time. Hopefully when the package finally arrives, you can invoice the buyer through Paypal and he will own up and pay up.

[ste_4662]

I think there’s new policy regarding removing the negative feedback regarding delivery delay during pandemic. So maybe the best choice would be waiting the case to time out.

[cashvaluerecovery2011]

Im currently dealing with this. Ebay will not remove negatives for item not received cases. Even though their own policy states that they will in cases where its "beyond your control due to systemic shipping delays". They do not consider it delayed if it hasnt arrived lol. Its only delayed after a delivery. The incompetence is "beyond" their control. 

[jovmil-67]

Thank you for seeing what did indeed actually happen. And again, thanks to all who posted. Since I last updated, I had a 2ND appeal get opened and closed against me. I was never making the phone calls to open an appeal, but rather to initially get information on how to handle the INR, then to voice concern over how that information was used against me to close the INR in buyer's favor.

Since the appeals were opened on my behalf just by making the phone calls seeking guidance or complaint, TWICE, it left me with no further appeal for when the package would have actually arrived within that 30 period. I then decided to initiate a USPS intercept and pay the additional $14.95 cost out of principle. I wanted my item back to relist.

To eBay's credit, they did see what happened and reversed the defect they had assigned on the INR case. I appreciated that and that was the most important thing that bothered me at that point.

My take away is just as you assumed correctly, that ANY call to customer service to address a case, can be taken as a request for an appeal, even though that call was for clarification or guidance. Those appeals will go against you as the seller, since no status has changed in regards to delivery. Two appeals and you're on your own.

From now on, I'll issue a refund immediately and wait for item to arrive within the 30 days window to request reimbursement. Or, depending on communication with the buy, just do a refund, then an intercept. I learn something new all the time.

[jovmil-67]

Thank you for your posts. I do understand that policy, but the two appeals that were opened for me just for making the phone calls to LEARN of the 30 delivery refund from CS, negated my ability to request that very refund. I got caught up in some catch 22. I'll be sure to be more vigilant in how I handle another, should one arise.

[xchains]

I have appealed closed appeals numerous times and ALWAYS won because I (like you) do the right thing ALWAYS.  Always means about 4 or 5 times but when the disaster happens you feel your world has caved in and it feels like alwaysssssssssss!.