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irinahat · ‎03-26-2018

I came across a framed artwork piece at an estate sale and thought nothing of it until I researched what's on the back of the frame. "The Nicoll Company" 1107 Chapline ST Wheeling WV.

This was apparently a family owned (it appears) art shoppe from the early 1900s - ??? (can't find info really on when it closed, etc)

I did a Worthpoint search and did find only one other thing from this shoppe, and it too was a religious themed original painting.

I'm trying to decide if this is an original piece of art or a print. It's hard to tell. It LOOKS like it's on textured paper, being drawn with perhaps chalk pastels and a combination of watercolor for the red blood droplets, but, I know that art prints do print the texture of the original, making a print look textured itself. If this were oil, I'd tell right away if it was real or a reproduction because oil has texture, while chalk pastels and watercolors don't really alter the texture of paper too much.

The artist signed his name John something, with the first part ending in ING - I believe the frame is obscuring the whole name.

I am very tempted to destroy the frame, even though it does have the original store sticker on it, proving that it's originally from an antique shoppe, but, I don't see any other way to 100% verify if this is real or not.

I guess my questions are:
1) Do any of you recognize this? As in, is it a famous art print that I'm just not seeing show up in my searches for similar Jesus Christ prints?
2) I took photos, what are the chances of it being authentic? I know it's hard to tell via photos.
3) Is there any chance an art appraiser may know without destroying the frame? I used a magnifying glass and it looks textured on paper, but, it's hard to tell.
4) Ultimately, will I have to just suck it up and probably destroy the frame to know for sure? Trying to see what my options are because I take apart the back of the frame with the original shoppe sticker on it.

I am a novice seller but rarely encounter items that stump me quite like this. I usually am very sure of whether something is an original painting or a print, and, I'm kind of inexperienced in the guessing game of "Is the art real or not?"

I've willingly and gladly destroyed the backs of frames in the past to authenticate art, but, this one does have the original shoppe sticker, and the shoppe is rather obscure and not much info can be found on it, so, that just makes me hesitant.

irinahat · ‎03-27-2018

@sonomabarn67wrote:
"..so if someone got this framed at an old antique shop"

You might have better luck if you go at this as a frame/art shop that sold some antique art rather than the other way around. Also, housewares shops would have adverts offering framing services. Check any old city directories from that town under decorative goods, art frames, etc. Drop the word antique from your searches for now. And thanks for not destroying frames. It would be safe to open up the back to get at the sig. If you slice the two sides and bottom of the paper and leave the top "hinge" intact, you can feed it under the wire and have total access to the nails. This leaves the orig lable intact on the paper.

I may have phrased things a bit weirdly, so sorry if I've confused anyone. I made this post originally after a long night shift at my regular job, followed by me sorting through estate sale finds, etc. The research I'm doing is on the name on the back, "The Nicoll Company", and I was trying to figure out when it was founded / when it closed and what sort of things they sold so I could better date this artwork - whether it be a print or not. I did some digging after really going deep into internet searches, and what popped up was that it was an art shop that sold art. When I went to Worthpoint, a very helpful website, I did a search on "The Nicoll Company" and found an original painting, also framed like mine, with the sticker on it on the back, that was also a religious themed painting, so, that's when my mind wandered to "Hmm, coincidence? Maybe they sold a lot of religious-themed original artwork?" - so it seems that someone could have gotten something framed here OR they sold artwork, framed them, and put their stickers on. All of this aside, this is purely for dating purposes. I am trying to find ways to figure out when this shoppe existed, etc., because even if someone just got the item framed here, it would be helpful to know if the shop was open from (such and such date) until (such and such" date). A helpful lead I got was on Ancestry.com, someone posted, and I quote:

"My mother just moved and I have "re-discovered" a photograph of my father's family -- The Bierys who settled in Wheeling WV upon emigrating from Switzerland in 1879. The photograph was framed and the tag on the back says " Nicoll Co. 1107 Chapline St. Wheeling WV" AND the other hint I got was on a historical records website, and I quote: "Nicoll Art Store Photograph Album, Wheeling, West Virginia, 1901-1903" - which makes me think "The Nicoll Company" (the sticker on the back) was a shoppe open around 1901- ?? (can't find a closing date), and in my experience, when I list things such as this, I like to know around how old the item is and any historical details about where it was bought, when, etc.

And of course, the authenticity of if this is hand drawn / hand tinted at least vs a print also changes value, as well as price. An antique original art piece will cost more than a vintage reproduction, which is why I'm sort of scrutinizing where it was framed / where it was purchased (since I'm unsure of if it was framed at this old art shoppe or bought there) because either way, it'd still help me at least have a vague idea of how old this is. But to determine authenticity, I think I'll carefully remove the back, saving the sticker, and just noting that "This was either framed or purchased at an art shop that was around in the early 1900s" and that should be accurate enough for when I try to resell it, considering determining authenticity is going to be the make or break thing here, not where it was purchased or the frame itself. I just wanted to keep it in tact as is, since if it's so old and well preserved, I would only take a frame apart like this if I had to determine authenticity, which I've had to do in the past.

argon38 · ‎03-27-2018

@irinahatwrote:
@argon38wrote:
I'm not sure I understand what effect was being aimed at by depicting a tear in the canvas? Also, I don't really feel it is obvious that the four nails in the corner of the image must represent Christ being nailed to the cross. It would make more sense to me as a depiction based upon an existing image with four real nails and a real tear. But of course, I could be wrong.
No, you see, I've been selling art for 15+ years. I am looking at it with a magnifying glass and I can visibly see that the nails and the tear are for sure painted on - if this is an original, then painted on this canvas, and if a print, then painted on the original art. Trust me, the nails and cracks are shaded, look like paint, etc. I am almost certain that these are not actual nails. I can only tell because I literally have had my face 1 inch away from this thing with a magnifying glass, scrutinizing it, and I can definitely tell that these nails and cracks were drawn on.

Sure - I don't doubt for a second that the nails and cracks and tears are part of the image and not real. That's what I suspected from your photo, which is why I asked about them in the first place. But what this fact suggests to me is that your piece may be based on an original examplar which does have real nails in the corners and a real tear at the bottom. Perhaps your artist visited a church with a striking image of Christ on the wall and painted it from sight. In that case you would have a real painting (not a print), but it would still be a direct copy of another artwork, as opposed to an original composition.

sonomabarn67 · ‎03-27-2018

Two things: I still feel that it is a copy of an original or painted copy of a print of the original, and two, the quality of the sig does not equal the quality of the composition. I was hoping to see the full sig but it looks like that will never happen. Good luck with it.

argon38 · ‎03-28-2018

@irinahat wrote:
The research I'm doing is on the name on the back, "The Nicoll Company", and I was trying to figure out when it was founded / when it closed and what sort of things they sold so I could better date this artwork

Well, according to his death certificate, William Turner Nicoll - owner of the Nicoll Art Store at 1107 Chapline Street - died of a cerebral thrombosis at 9.00 am on 17 October 1938 at the age of 69:

http://www.wvculture.org/vrr/va_view.aspx?Id=5680257&Type=Death

http://www.wvculture.org/vrr/va_dcdetail.aspx?Id=5680257

A magazine called Movie Makers: Magazine of the Amateur Cinema League, Inc. mentioned the Nicoll Company in its monthly list of stockists in January 1939, and again in February; but the store disappeared from its list from the March issue onwards.

Movie Makers, February 1939, p. 93:

Movie Makers, March 1939, p. 93:

https://archive.org/stream/moviemakers14amat#page/n6/mode/1up

argon38 · ‎03-28-2018

@argon38 wrote:
Movie Makers, March 1939, p. 93:

Correction: that should be March 1939, p. 145. (Page 93 refers to the list in the February issue).

argon38 · ‎03-28-2018

OK, disregard the above. This reference shows that Nicoll's Art Store was still active in 1953:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=cjkhAQAAIAAJ&q=%22Nicoll+Art%22+%22wheeling%22&dq=%22Nicoll+Art%...

More material here:

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22nicoll%27s+art+store%22&complete=0&dcr=0&ei=-0y7WrL-HordgAaItpSgC...

argon38 · ‎03-28-2018

This advertisement is from the West Virginia State Gazetteer and Business Directory 1904-05. Note that the address is given as 1231 Market Street, which suggests that the move to 1107 Chapline Street still lay in the future:

star.fighter · ‎03-28-2018

@argon38wrote:
This advertisement is from the West Virginia State Gazetteer and Business Directory 1904-05. Note that the address is given as 1231 Market Street, which suggests that the move to 1107 Chapline Street still lay in the future:

wow - that is great detective work! first...the above ad says they've been in biz since 1868. so, that is clearly your starting point.

my experience says that even tho the shop was open for decades at least, the era of the framing of the painting can be pinned down if the logo can be dated. note how they did the graphics above, but the name was not stylized. so, if the stylized version of the logo can be attributed to a date, that would help.

as to the painting...i am not as good with dating or evaluating the media used as some of you...but i DO have pieces that are old and abused...yet, they don't look as aged as this painting. i guess if the painting were kept in a barn or left out in the sun, it could age like that, but it looks old. and yet...the artist name sounds more like a modern twist. i think the 'king john' is a play on words -- the artist's name was prob john...but he was playing on the 'king james' bible reference. just a guess.

those of you who are artists surely see that the artwork is not a simple piece. as a copy, it is still very good...and as an original, it is fairly masterful. it is an excellent piece no matter what...and i am very curious about the comment as to whether the nails and tears are copied from an original piece or if they are symbolic (or both?). fascinating.

argon38 · ‎03-28-2018

@star.fighter wrote:

my experience says that even tho the shop was open for decades at least, the era of the framing of the painting can be pinned down if the logo can be dated. note how they did the graphics above, but the name was not stylized. so, if the stylized version of the logo can be attributed to a date, that would help.

If the OP can pin down when the shop moved from Market Street to Chapline Street then that would provide a starting date for the frame, since the Chapline Street address is the one on the label. Of course, dating the frame wouldn't necessarily date the picture, which might be older.

I found your suggestion re. the "King John" signature interesting. It is such an odd name for anyone to choose. Maybe he was plain old John King and just liked signing his name backwards?!

estatesbyrose · ‎03-28-2018

Do an image search online

sonomabarn67 · ‎03-28-2018

If we can't see the entire sig, we don't know if it is saying "King John" as the first bit is obscured. Pop the thing out of the frame and see exactly what it says for "G** Sakes! I've taken apart three framed paintings since this thread has started!