Authentic Indian Artifact

[bkpasint]

Like to know how these Arrow Heads get classified Authentic Indian Artifact. Boughtat estate sale personin charge which was her Uncle did not know info  Only that he collected Native American items.

[18704d]

They get classified as "authentic" if they're evaluated by an expert.

Most of yours seem to have little patina or long-term wear,

in my opinion.. or maybe it's just your pictures.

I've flint knapped (or at least tried) and I know many people who still make these

and I've spend many days walking farm fields and actually finding such points and blades.

Anyway.. someone would really need to evaluate them in person.

Lynn

[bkpasint]

Thank You

[sports_cards_artifacts_and_collectibles]

Lately, I have been finding sellers list their so-called authentic under the correct category of non-Native American/1935-present/ Modern Art/ Crafts or whatever ambigiously construed category they can use to deceive. Although they don't explicitly state authentic in their listings, they want buyers who are unaware to explicitly believe this as true in the way they leave out the facts or details that could show their item is a fake. Another tactic I have seen as of late is when they list an item under the title "Indian Arrowhead", and use catchy words such as "rare" and very "unique". Then in the detailed description, they will say that they recently acquired this huge collection from some no-name person's estate or collection in a said State. Then to follow will add that this is your opportunity to obtain some really nice pieces for cheap. Additionally, they often use false aging processes such as with submerging their modern-day crafted Indian arrowhead ARTIFAKES in oil and burying them in dirt for an extended length of time to simulate the aging process, among others. This non-Native American category of modern arts and crafts must be eliminated from eBay's platform if we are to weed out a good portion of these ARTIFAKERS, who are indeed unethical and immoral. They know who they are, it is in our due diligence to identify and expose them.

With Respect

Josh Norris

[deepseashadow]

failing to reform sellers will be the downfall of the big e

[rusty7227]

Bill Breckinridge does a new technique called Raman Spectograghy which uses laser light beams to penetrate the stone and give an accurate 100% age of the item. It is a big problem here on ebay with people selling "artifakes" making tens of thousands of dollars and listing them as 100% authentic. Problem is it is ruining the authentic artifacts mixing with collections and being sold as authentic. These people will say anything do anything because most people won't go to the trouble or it takes longer than the return period to get artifacts authenticated. It's best to consider all artifacts on ebay as a fake unless authenticated by a Raman Spectogrphy laser test. Authenticators are also into it for the money and some will authenticate anything for a fee. I'm having trouble right now with a seller saying 100% authentic. I had them tested and now hope to be returned $1,200 of my money for a scam. Good luck you're not alone.

[rusty7227]

Thanks Josh. We need to stop this now!!!! Many people on here deceiving the public and ruining a really great hobble for $$$. The Raman Spectography offered by Bill Breckinridge eliminates 100% of fakes. He will "authenticate" w/o written report for $20.00 and with a scan and two page report showing actual age $75.00. We should educate people and they should ask the sellers for the laser scan before paying or in addition to paying large sums for an item.

[bnbsellingtime]

I too deplore the fraud. A lot of excellent modern flint knappers do great work with no intention of deception but others buy their pieces with exactly that in mind.

I used to hunt for artifacts a lot myself. Only the ones I found have value to me and they are priceless. Nothing like the feeling of finding a 6 inch perfect point no one has seen for 7000 years or so since it was lost in a hunt.

People such as myself know when they see them in person usually except for the semi precious gemstone pieces which sometimes do not have the patina then one has to judge wear which can be trickier.

I believe the 4 large ones to likely be modern and possibly the whole lot but I can't see any of them close enough to be confident.

[maxine*j]

I know it's a bit of a zombie thread, but...

Nothing can "eliminate 100% of fakes" or give "accurate 100% age" and I'd be surprised if Mr. Breckinridge makes that claim.  If he does, I'd be leery.  But, then, I'd be leery of sending important and treasured artifacts off to some guy with a website and a machine, especially as I know something of Raman spectroscopy which is not a "new technique." 

Mr. Breckinridge is using infrared laser spectroscopy equipment invented by David H. Walley and patented by him in 2012, which makes use of Raman frequency shifts when monochromatic light is reflected back from a target.  Its use in archaeology certainly has potential, but it's early days still and I don't find that Mr. Walley or any of enthusiastic supporters of the "Walleyscope" make claims for such perfection in accuracy.

As for a COLA from Mr., Breckinridge, unless he is a recognized, credentialled expert in whatever field he claims to have expertise in, his COLAs are just pieces of paper.  I'm not sure what his field is as he says he is "not a professional Archaeologist, Anthropologist or Geologist," but fails to say what his profession is beyond farming. Nor does he claim to have lab experience or expertise of the kind needed to calibrate, maintain, or use ILS and similar equipment. 

I know I sound harsh, but the fact is that there is as big a problem on eBay with ultimately useless COAs as there is with fake items. 

[mstcwrld7]

       Some items are difficult or impossible to authenticate from photos alone.  Arrowheads would seem to be a prime example.   Lead soldiers, I read,  all look old even if they are new. 

         If old age is critical to your appreciation of an item, or what you are willing to pay for it, I would hesitate to buy the item online.    

        Buying arrowheads with the belief that they are many hundreds or thousands or years old  online, you are taking the description on faith because I don't see how you can tell from a photo.

        Of course, ebay encourages sellers to accept returns of their items for any reason. 

As sellers, we do.    We don't get items of enormous antiquity but we get some items that are antique, some that are vintage, and some are new.   Sometimes we are not sure within 10-20 years and if so we do not  represent exactly how old we believe they are.    We used to have access to an NA expert who was also a wonderful person and shared much info with us.  He is regrettably deceased and  right now we don't have access to an expert who knows much more than we do. 

       Sometimes we know exactly how old something is and sometimes we don't.   We do not stick our necks out as far as age.  Unless we know the person who made the item.  Which is some cases we do; we have a Navajo friend who makes pottery and some jewelry.  These currently produced pieces are obviously not antique and we say so. 

      . We sell a lot of Indian jewelry and most of the pieces that are popular were produced in the last 100 years.  Silver jewelry  was not plentiful before 1900 around here (southwest USA) even though some people think so.  A 1920s NA silver piece is relatively old indeed.   Not many Navajo  rugs from  pre-1900 survive.   And when it comes to silver,  a silver piece can tarnish within 10 years or less so tarnish is no guarantor of great age.  

       Neither is the description "pawn"  synonymous with age. .  Dead pawn is anything that was pawned and not redeemed in a certain period of time. That period can be less than a year.    A two year old guitar can be "dead pawn".    .

         There is a misconcepton that "old" and "pawn" are synonymous, but they are not.  To say something is dead pawn simply means it was bought from a pawnbroker after the allowable redemption period is up.    We get items that way and many are vintage but not necessarly. 

[mstcwrld7]

       I produce some of the art we sell and I give COAs on no work but my own. 

When I sell my work fromy mystudio or through galleries, no collector has ever asked for a COA, but I can see why ebay collectors want them. 

[rusty7227]

Josh, Hope you're still around. I'm looking for ANY information on exposing these "artifakers" here on Ebay. Do you know if a person(seller) lists an item as 100 %authentic if it's legal under Ebay rules? I have never bought points until recently and bought 9 points from this person who stated they were 100% authentic and they were selling there collection of 30 years and offered a return for any reason of 30 days". I sent these points to Bill Breckinridge who does Raman Laser Spectography scans that are 100 % accurate in determining age, compostion etc. and ALL these were fakes with fake patina. I was returned my money like 900+ dollars but these people are making thousands a week bypassing the authenticity rules I believe. When I gave a negative review they called my house several times wanting me to retract the negative feedback which I did. I left negative follow up feedback on all the points but don't know if it's visible to users. I really don't know if people really care if these are fakes or not. I don't think Ebay cares because they're making money from them. The problem is these fakes are entering legitimate collections of respectable collectors. With the new Raman software it's possible to 100% indentify and remove a fake but it costs time and money to do it. Just wondering if you had any info on this. thanks Rusty

[rusty7227]

Raman spectography is not new but the software used to determine the patina and composition of the material is. I had 9 points authenticated and it's 100% accurate. Sounds like you're either one of these fakers or just a skeptic of science. At any rate you should try it before you post something you know very little about.

[rusty7227]

Bill Breckinridge no longer adds "In his opinion" on his COA's because it is not his opinion anymore but a precise science with the development of the newer software used with the Raman. I've used it and so have other respectable authenticators who sent Brekenridge points that turned out to be modern. There are problems with "fake Coa's" and this is Not one of them but a way to finally put to rest the people who are faking patina, etc.

[maxine*j]

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@rusty7227 wrote:
Raman spectography is not new but the software used to determine the patina and composition of the material is. I had 9 points authenticated and it's 100% accurate. Sounds like you're either one of these fakers or just a skeptic of science. At any rate you should try it before you post something you know very little about.

---

I do not know of one research scientist or degreed archaeologist who states that LRS is currently a reliable method to determine the authenticity or the age of any stone artifact, period. 

It holds promise, as an adjunct to other techniques, definitely, and it is currently used by archaeologists, both for examining artifacts and the soils and sediments in which they're found.

In historical art authentication, RLS is very helpful when used along with one or more of the other standard types of advanced spectoscopy; e.g., infared spectoscopy, X-ray fluorescence spectroscopy, mass spectrometry.  In parietal artwork, the results from RLS have been more mixed.  RLS has also shown good results (again, in conjunction with other testing methods) in examining medieval manuscripts and even gemstones embedded in other artifacts.

All this is keeping in mind that however and whenever it is used, RLS is a "fingerprint" technique;  e.g., results must be compared to spectra in searachable Raman databases, and the results are only as good as those comparables.

It is simply not so that one person using this one technique can be "100% accurate" in authenticating and dating a stone artifact.

I believe that the more you encourage people to rely on COAs, the more you discourage the actual learning that should be at the heart of any collecting and the delight of any collector.  It is also knowledge and experience that is any collector's best defence against being the victim of fraud.