Seller using shill to run up bids

[krimsondelamber]

Day before yesterday I came to EBay to buy a few jewelry gifts.  I am an experienced EBay shopper, have bought thousands of items here for my jewelry making.  But this time I was primarily shopping for finished jewelry.  I found a vendor whose items I liked and went to their page and started bidding on items.  Everything I bid on gave me a popup that I'd been outbid, so I'd try a similar item and get the same.  After trying about 30 items I gave up and shopped elsewhere.  Shortly I started getting notices in my mailbox that ALL the bids had been retracted and suddenly I was the winner of all these auctons.  27 bid retractions?  So I went to the bid history and it was the same bidder on every one.  I followed the link to their history and got some strange data.  They have a 61 after their name, but they have bid on more than 31,000 auctions, 30% with this vendor.  10,000 bids with this vendor?  Their history says they have 0 bid retractions.  I sent an email to customer service requesting to cancel all these items from this seller, but I wanted to ask what my options are and ask if anyone's had a problem like this before.

[godzilla_goose]

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@coolections wrote:

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@krimsondelamber wrote:

No, I did not get them at minimum bid.  The minimum bid was, for example, .01.  I bid $10.  Their fake bidder bid $11, causing my proxy to escalate to the maximum $10, then canceled their bid, leaving me stuck with my maximum bid on every item.   I came looking to spend about $50 on five gifts, now I'm in the bag for close to $300, and many of the items are essentially duplicates.  

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That is not how it works. If the bids where cancelled that would have put the auction back to 0.01 not your $10 bid.

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coolections,

WRONG.  BLATANTLY WRONG.

If a seller cancels a bid, ONLY the specific bid is cancelled that was placed by that bidder.

If a BIDDER places MULTIPLE bids in an auction with more than 12 hours remaining in the auction and the bidder RETRACTS, THEN ALL of that bidder's bids are gone.

IF a bidder places a bid (or multiple bids) with less than 12 hours remaining in the auction and then the bidder retracts,  ONLY the most recent bid is retracted.

Here, the OP stated the seller CANCELLED the bidder's bid.

The OP was SHILLED.

[krimsondelamber]

I was planning to call EBay, I wanted to get some feedback here on the forum from people who understand the system before I tackled EBay CS.  Last year I had a problem with a seller screwing me on shipping (tripled the shipping from what was listed in the auction) and had to repeatedly call and escalate before I got someone who was able to actually do anything.  So I wanted to start from a better foundation of knowledge.  

So when you say that if the bids were placed in the final 12 hours of the auction, they ony cancel the last bid, is this an EBay policy or just how the sellers do things?  Is there a way to challenge it?  If you look at the bid history I posted a little earlier from one of the auctions, you can see that the timing is very hinky, and the shill bidder was exactly the one you mentioned m**h 61.  In looking at these bids, I've seen a couple of other bidders that also seem to be shills.

Do you have any suggestions how to approach EBay on this?  It seems to me that if fraud can be established I should not be liable for these auctions.  

[missjen831]

There is no 12 hour rule for sellers. The seller can cancel bids at any time. Buyers can or retract bids during the last 12 hours unless they retract within 30 minutes of placing the bid. I wouldn’t expect a resolution from eBay but let us know what happens!

[godzilla_goose]

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@krimsondelamber wrote:

I was planning to call EBay, I wanted to get some feedback here on the forum from people who understand the system before I tackled EBay CS.  Last year I had a problem with a seller screwing me on shipping (tripled the shipping from what was listed in the auction) and had to repeatedly call and escalate before I got someone who was able to actually do anything.  So I wanted to start from a better foundation of knowledge.  

So when you say that if the bids were placed in the final 12 hours of the auction, they ony cancel the last bid, is this an EBay policy or just how the sellers do things?  Is there a way to challenge it?  If you look at the bid history I posted a little earlier from one of the auctions, you can see that the timing is very hinky, and the shill bidder was exactly the one you mentioned m**h 61.  In looking at these bids, I've seen a couple of other bidders that also seem to be shills.

Do you have any suggestions how to approach EBay on this?  It seems to me that if fraud can be established I should not be liable for these auctions.  

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@krimsondelamber

krimsondelamber,

When I first posted to you in message #15, there were only 5 posts to your thread that I had read and then I went away to do some research before coming back to post.

What you have written in message #14 is exactly what I am talking about with respect to the "EVIDENCE" of SHILL BIDDING within the Bid History page to that auction.

By the questionable activity performed by m***h (61) and the related SHILLING seller(s), I KNOW that m***h (61) is a SHILL BIDDER.

Remember this: Bidders RETRACT their bids; ONLY the seller (and eBay, via Administrative Cancellation) can CANCEL a bidder's bid(s).

An eBay seller can cancel a bidder's bids for ANY reason at all. That being said, a REPUTABLE eBay seller who cancels a bidder's bids likely will also place that bidder's ID on the seller's Blocked Bidder List to prevent that bidder from placing any further bids in the seller's auctions.

In YOUR case, m***h (61) placed what I call a SHILL bid of $11.90 on Jan 7 at 3:34:18 PM PST to act as an "artificial reserve" since the auction was started at 1¢ on Jan 3 at 11:04:01 AM PST.

When YOU placed your bid of $6.01 on Jan 8 at 10:42:06 AM PST, YOU were immediately outbid by m***h (61)'s earlier bid of $11.90 at that point during the auction and the current high bid showing in the auction would have risen to $6.51 calculated as YOUR $6.01 proxy bid PLUS one bid increment of 50¢ at that price level.

NOW, since it is the objective of the SHILLING SELLER NOT to "win" their own auction, but to screw the legitimate bidder, YOU, the SHILLING SELLER CANCELLED m***h (61)'s $11.90 "high bid" on Jan 8 at 10:41:52 AM PST. ONCE the SHILLING SELLER cancelled m***h (61)'s $11.90 "high bid", the current bid showing would have FALLEN down to $2.25 calculated as 0***a (225)'s $2.00 proxy bid PLUS one bid increment of 25¢ at that price level BELOW $5.00.

Furthermore, since the SHILLING SELLER KNOWS the full amount of your proxy bid being $6.01, the SHILLING SELLER used the SHILL BIDDING ID, m***h (61), to place a bid of $5.80 BELOW your bid of $6.01 on Jan 8 just 14 seconds after cancelling m***h (61)'s $11.90 "high bid".

Bottom line, you were SHILLED and I just PROVED it.

Approach eBay with these findings and request to speak to an eBay Trust & Safety representative from the United States to deal with you. DON'T waste your time with an inept off-shore Customer Service representative.

Last post for today. I am going to do my real life work.  You take care.

[godzilla_goose]

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@krimsondelamber wrote:

I was planning to call EBay, I wanted to get some feedback here on the forum from people who understand the system before I tackled EBay CS.  Last year I had a problem with a seller screwing me on shipping (tripled the shipping from what was listed in the auction) and had to repeatedly call and escalate before I got someone who was able to actually do anything.  So I wanted to start from a better foundation of knowledge.  

So when you say that if the bids were placed in the final 12 hours of the auction, they ony cancel the last bid, is this an EBay policy or just how the sellers do things?  Is there a way to challenge it?  If you look at the bid history I posted a little earlier from one of the auctions, you can see that the timing is very hinky, and the shill bidder was exactly the one you mentioned m**h 61.  In looking at these bids, I've seen a couple of other bidders that also seem to be shills.

Do you have any suggestions how to approach EBay on this?  It seems to me that if fraud can be established I should not be liable for these auctions.  

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@krimsondelamber

krimsondelamber,

One last post to help you out and then I am GONE.

As I wrote earlier, if I found myself in such a situation in which my bids were SHILLED, I will NEVER pay for those items. PERIOD.

Per eBay's User Agreement:

https://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html

Within the section titled Using eBay:

In connection with using or accessing the Services you will not:

breach or circumvent any laws, third party rights or out systems, policies or determination of your account status

[First, SHILLING is illegal. SHILLING is also against eBay policy.]

use our Services if you are not able to form legally binding contracts (for example, if you are under 18 years old), or are temporarily or indefinitely suspended from using our sites, services, applications or tools;

[As far as I am concerned as a party acting at-arms-length from you, there is NO legally binding contract formed between YOU and the seller at the moment that the seller breached eBay's User Agreement by SHILLING your bids.]

fail to pay for items purchased by you, unless you have a valid reason as set out in an eBay policy, for example, the seller has materially changed the item's description after you bid, a clear typographical error is made, or you cannot contact the seller (see out Unpaid item policy);

[As far as I am concerned as a party acting at-arms-length from you, this clause in eBay's User Agreement is not all-inclusive of the (specific) reasons for not paying.]

manipulate the price of any item or interfere with any other user's listings;

[Your seller, by cancelling m***h (61)'s bids and by m***h (61) placing bids underneath your existing proxy bids is clear EVIDENCE of "manipulation of prices" and therefore is a clear and distinct breach of the eBay User Agreement. Since ONLY a seller and eBay, via Administrative Cancellation, may cancel a bidder's bid(s), the seller is directly implicated in the price manipulation activity of the items on which you placed legitimate bids.]

If I were you, I would cite eBay's User Agreement as I just did when approaching/contacting eBay to plead your case to be relieved of paying for SHILLED bids.

[krimsondelamber]

Thanks, you have been a big help!

[ibrah.hama]

hello 

I was bidding on an Item and in the last few seconds the highest bid was 450 then I put my max bid then I became the highest and in a second reach my max witch is 620 how that become in less than three second notice that the item was 420 for two days until the last mins 

does any one happend the same with him ??  

[krimsondelamber]

Someone may have put in a proxy bid for higher than your highest bid or used a bid sniping service.   I'd need more info to figure it out.  You can click on the bidders to see the bidding detail, and there's a link on that page that says see automatic bidding that You can click for even more detail.

[thatsallfolks]

“I've depended on EBay for years to source art supplies, but if every time I'm outbid I have to wait till each auction closes before I can safely bid on a different item, there's no point at all in trying to buy things here.”

The obvious solution is to bid at the end of the auction. You’ll find out right away if you won.

[godzilla_goose]

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@krimsondelamber wrote:

Wow, that's a good point.  If they canceled or retracted a bidder, they should have canceled all his bids, not just the last one.  So for example one of the aucions goes like this:

Starting price $.01 3 Jan 2018 at 11:04:01AM PST

a***a(private) $1.00 4 Jan 2018 at 10:23:20AM PST

0***a(225)  $1.00 6 Jan 2018 at 11:21:42AM PST

0***a(225)  $2.00  6 Jan 2018 at 11:21:45AM PST

m***h(61) $5.80 8 Jan 2018 at 10:42:06AM PST

me $6.01  8 Jan 2018 at 7:18:57AM PST

m***h(61) Cancelled: $11.90

Bid: 7 Jan 2018 at 3:34:18PM PST

Cancelled: 8 Jan 2018 at 10:41:52AM PST

They only canceled m**h's last bid, leaving the bid that ran me up to my max in the calculation.  But they should have taken out all m**h's bids.  This seller uses bid increments of $.25, so I should be charged $2.25, which is what my bid would have been without m**h's bid, rather than the $6.01 they are charging me.  Is this correct?  That would make a big difference.

Also, if the link to this m**h's page is intact, have a look at it and tell me there's no fraud here.

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@krimsondelamber,

krimsondelamber,

I have re-read my post #19 and have found an error in paragraph #7: When YOU placed your bid of $6.01 on Jan 8 at 10:42:06 AM PST

THIS is what should have been posted: When YOU placed your bid of $6.01 on Jan 8 at 7:18:57 AM PST

It is the SHILL BIDDER, m***h (61), who placed their $5.80 SHILL BID on Jan 8 at 10:42:06 AM PST just below YOUR $6.01 proxy bid just 14 seconds after the SHILLING SELLER cancelled m***h (61)'s $11.90 bid on Jan 8 at 10:41:52 AM PST.

In theory, you should have won this particular auction for $2.25 calculated as 0***a (225)'s $2.00 bid PLUS one bid increment of 25¢. THIS also assumes that 0***a (225) is a legitimate bidder since as I stated earlier, these SHILLING SELLERS use multiple SHILL BIDDING IDs to mess with the legitimate bidders' bids.

[federal304]

I came here to look for topics regarding sellers cancelling bids and ending the listing because they aren't happy with the going price of their auction-based listing.

I also see a posts by sellers who used to sell say, $2k-$3k a weekend, wanting to know why his/her sales are down to $75 a weekend. WhodathunkIsn't it also amazing how you see so many more, than ever before, bidding IDs that have (0) feedback?

In your case, It is funny/peculiar how eBay's system says there are no bid retractions by the suspected shill bidder. I always wondered how ineffective the idea behind hiding the bidders' IDs could be when it came to eBay keeping watch of sellers who are breaking the rules. It's also funny how people have a hard time understanding what it is You're* upset about. I have many times put 4-5 bids on different listings for the same item; Often it could be (E.G.,) for say, a li-ion/ni-mh battery charger, li-ion batteries, a battery storage case and an LED flashlight, I think, "how nice that would be if they came from the same seller, I'll start the bidding at $0.01"... oh wait, immediately someone bid over me (possibly with a BOT) and then the bidding war begins.

I'd be perturbed as well, if I could have won all the items for $0.01 a piece x5, rather than $40+ for all. It's pretty simple to understand why You're upset. Hope You get it resolved and the eBay finds a way to block these fugazi (fake/**bleep**/joke) sellers. eBay is way less fun and productive than it was in 1995 and far from what it was estimated to be in 1986. Now it appears it's more like a way to launder money via the stock market. I see way less satisfied buyers and sellers than I did in 2006 when the revamping software/eye-candy renovations started.

Good Luck!

[dallahar0]

e-bay is condoning fraud by not enfocing their own rules

[schoffstall1032]

I have a seller that runs up their bids I believe but I don't know how to report it. I was bidding on a bunch of the items and was still getting out bid. I then looked at a lot of the jewelry items and they all have the same bidder!  Then when you get to an "acceptable" price you win the bid. I also noticed that someone left feedback that feels the same way I do. 

[lt-mint]

I have the same situation as topic writer. The case is already opened and I have to pay till 25th of April. What will be if I ignore it? Or maybe there is possibility not to call Ebay, but write all situation in email, cause english language is not my mother tongue. It's just to difficult to explain everything on phone.

[mudshark61369]

@schoffstall1032,

Your situation may be different from krimsomdelamber.  It sounds like you are bidding against previously placed Automatic bids. Since the sellers you have been buying from have low starting prices on their items, it is not unusual for a buyer to place bids on many of one seller's items at a time (you are doing that too).  That is not shill bidding unless that person is having thier bids canceled, or are retracting them leaving you the winner.  We would need more information than what you have provided to determine one way or the other, if this could be shill bidding. 

The best way to avoid possible shills is to place one bid for the most you are willing to pay, late in the auction. That gives other bidders, or possible shills less time to react to your bid, and you will fid out sooner if you are the winner.  

FYI, High volume sellers with less than a 99% rating should be avoided.