Misunderstood or Misrepresented?

[joyribbons]

Hello. I was delighted to find this board exists from a note that was added to a description by Svengali. I am appalled at the lack of knowledge and misrepresentation of Bakelite buttons on eBay. I think I can pretty much tell a real one by the photo because I've had extensive experience with Bakelite. I was fooled recently and the Seller had no time for my attempts to tell her why her buttons were fakes. Now I'm going to read some of your posts. Congratulations on forming this group. ~Ribbons

[svengali]

Hi, welcome to the board. It isn't very active here, sorry for the delay in replying to your post. Sooner or later we'll get more members which will make this a more active place. I agree with you about the mislabeling of bakelite buttons, it is epidemic. I've talked to eBay about this and they have a problem pulling ads because they can't be sure I'm right and the seller is wrong. I have only suggested pulling ads a few times after extensive discussions with the seller pointing out the material they listed was not bakelite but some other easily identifiable plastic. In the long run I feel it's the bidder who has to be educated and know what they are bidding on. Mistakes can happen and we can also be fooled by images even with a lot of experience but those are the issues inherent to online bidding. It truly is "caveat emptor" out there. If you hang around the Vintage Sewing: Buttons area long enough you will see who lists bakelite buttons correctly and has great feedback. Bid with those folks.

[the-responder]

Of course I have to but my two cents in, well more like a quarter. I have contacted seller about their bakelite buttons, which are actually celluloid. I am a lover of celluloid extruded or spaghetti buttons. So when I see these types of buttons I try to educate and get the seller to change their description/title. Most of the time, they think I am full of it. I have observed that in the world of antiques, bakelite is, what I want to say, is the polymer favor of the month.. In my world of button collecting celluloid is a prize, well to me any way. The National Button Society has a separate section on the subject in fact. Celluliod was the first polymer to make it commercially to replace the short supply of ivory (at the end of 19th century and including the beginning of the 20th century) and Bakelite is off spring of Celluloid. Celluloid had some problems initially, like catching on fire and got brittle when exposed to sun light. So, there was a need to find something that wouldn’t have these little problems and other polymers (or plastics) were invented by tweaking the original Celluliod formula, which one of the tweaks is Bakelite. There is a book out on the different types of polymers buttons and how to identify them. You may know how to test for Bakelite, but I think some button sellers on eBay don’t. I agree on knowing your subject matter is the key here and asking the seller appropriate questions before the end of the auction. I see antique type sellers trying to fit buttons into their world, but dog gone it, this is the button collecting and they should learn it. Yah baby!!!!!! Thanks - the celluloid nut (Linda) at The Responder

[svengali]

There is absolutely no chemical relationship between bakelie and celluloid. The replacement for celluloid plastic in the marketplace was cellulose acetate which is similar in chemical makeup to celluloid and looks a lot like it. In fact, many cellulose acetate buttons actually have the heat applied or glued on celluloid shanks which makes ID a bit difficult without hot point testing. Many who like celluloid buttons often have a great deal of cellulose acetate in their collection not knowing the difference between these two plastics and going only by what the shank looks like. Jocelyn Howells has a few good booklets out on how to test plastic buttons using a hot point test which does not have to leave big gaping holes if done correctly by those who are careful in their testing methods and really want to know the difference between these vintage plastics. Today bakelite can sell for as much ounce-for-ounce as precious metals and gemstones so getting it wrong in ads is a pretty serious matter. I've had people tell me that if they list vintage plastics and don't use the word bakelite they won't get any bids and they don't really care if they have bakelite or not, they just want the bids. Know your stuff, be careful what you read and bid with trusted sellers who get it right.

[shartey]

Guilty, and most likely will be guilty again. Unfortunately I am finding that I may still be confused about what I am doing. And the worst part of this, is that I have been in the antique business for more than 20 years and have sold buttons on a random basis for as many years. This is overwhelming to learn all at once, but, I am impressed at the amount of knowledge and it will help me strive to change my ways. Thanks to all of the seasoned collectors and sellers. nigel

[svengali]

No harm in being confused. What I object to are sellers who state materials when they really don't know. If you don't know, don't say for sure. Say you aren't sure. No harm in that.