07-25-2015 02:01 PM
07-29-2015 09:28 AM
*The light buff we do afterwards on the outside is necessitated by the multitudes of fine scratches the cases have accumulated over the years, not by any etching caused by the cleaning.*
If one looks at a piece of brand new silver, it has a harsh and bright shine to it.
Now compare the appearance of an old piece which has the multitudes of fine scratches . . . accumulated over the years.
Which one is more attractive, the harsh, new shine or the mellow, glow of the old piece?
Those pesky multitudes of fine scratches constitutes the desirable patina which only an old piece can display.
I once made an experiment. I bought a brand new silver vesta case on ebay. It looked bright and shiny and, well, brand new.
I kept it in my trouser pockets for a few months jingling around with coins and keys and such, after which it had acquired a very different, but to my eye, much more attractive appearance.
The improvement in the appearance was solely due to that multitude of fine scratches it had acquired.
I'm thinking of buying a pair of trousers with much larger pockets so I can carry around a silver tea set I once bought on ebay which had had all of the life polished out of it by some ill informed but maybe well meaning zealous previous owner.
07-29-2015 09:31 AM
(geez, this board has really been spoiled with all the new "improvements". which is the reason I deserted it so many moons ago.)
07-29-2015 07:25 PM
Just to put a finer point on what I said earlier, if I was in the market to buy an antique sterling cased pocket watch, if presented with one that had been gently polished by hand or one that was dunked & buffed (thus removing all those minute scratches that most antique collectors find attractive) I would buy the one that had been lightly hand polished.
You mentioned in your other response (that I cant find now) that you have been cleaning watch cases like this for 25 years. Im sure that the American Restoration guy has been at it *restoring* for 25 years as well. That does not equate an endorsement for his cleaning/stripping of the old surfaces that he does just because he does it. Are there people that like their antiques to look brand new? Yes. Are there people that like their antiques to look like...antiques? I would say the majority do.
07-30-2015 07:08 PM - edited 07-30-2015 08:56 PM
Most all of the watches sent to us for work have serious issues that are addressed with the cases such as lids that are ripped off, missing hinges, dents so bad the lid will not close, missing and worn silver inner lips that will not allow the lid to stay closed, and on and on besides being just downright filthy inside and out. Very, very rarely are they are as simple as just needing a nice hand polish.
Another serious issue that is addressed with dipping the cases is 150 years of debris that is jammed in the case hinge area is floated out. This montage of dirt, coal dust, horsehair, and God knows what is detrimental to the health of the movement when it is left in place as it will work loose and wind up in the inner movement mechanism over time and is inaccessible to hand cleaning unless one cares to remove the case hinges and that defies logic if they are not broken.
We do apply jewelers rouge very lightly to the outsides with a clean lambswool wheel but it does not remove any precious metal and simply imparts a shine while merely concealing some of the very finest scratches, not actually removing them. Plenty are left in plain sight for character .
The heart and soul of the watch is the movement and when it is all said and done protecting that delicate mechanism from dirt and harm is why the case is there in the first place and it needs to be functioning properly and to be clean to accomplish this.
We put many hours into completely disassembling, correctly cleaning and oiling the movements with the best products while replacing worn parts with correct parts, and please don't tell me you think the movement is best left dirty too. Dirt is the enemy of these delicate timepieces and only a fool winds and runs a dirty watch if he cares for it at all.
When the key wind watches, which is our primary focus, fell out of favor in the 1880's they were largely tossed on the junk pile, melted for their silver, or given to the grandchildren to play with while Dad admired his new highly jeweled stem wind railroad grade beauty. Their condition often reflects this.
By and far most all the watches with a nice warm gentle patina of tarnish that you would admire have had a very similar thorough treatment in the past when they were dug out of Uncle Williams sock drawer of mementos when he died 50 years ago and were presented to a watchmaker in dreadful condition to restore for the family.
I suppose some people may find dirty non running watches with ripped off dented lids and cracked dials to be romantic wallhangers but I don't feel that I need to apologize for the work that we do restoring them to a correctly functioning usable state. I didn't mean to put myself in a position to defend it either. I simply was remarking on a rather neat trick to get rid of tarnish without abrasive polishing techniques.
07-31-2015 12:39 AM - edited 07-31-2015 01:03 AM
@iapetus_rocks wrote:
I once made an experiment. I bought a brand new silver vesta case on ebay. It looked bright and shiny and, well, brand new.
I kept it in my trouser pockets for a few months jingling around with coins and keys and such, after which it had acquired a very different, but to my eye, much more attractive appearance.
The improvement in the appearance was solely due to that multitude of fine scratches it had acquired.
I'm thinking of buying a pair of trousers with much larger pockets so I can carry around a silver tea set I once bought on ebay which had had all of the life polished out of it by some ill informed but maybe well meaning zealous previous owner.
A pocket watch was never intended to be placed in a trouser pocket "jingling around with coins". They are intended to be carried carefully in a vest pocket on a chain to prevent them from falling and to be stored on a pocket watch holder when not being carried. A multitude of scratches merely shows careless care.
That is rather like saying that a 65 Corvette with 100 miles on the odometer that has been garaged it's whole life would look better with a couple of dents in the fender. Anybody older then 5 years of age realizes it is simply a pristine 65 Vette and will not be confusing it with a Prius.
Honest wear on a pocket watch is reflected in a soft, smooth reduction in the depth of the engraving and the length of the hinges on the outside from many years of being worn away by the cloth they rubbed up against while being carried. Often times this wear is uneven reflecting the carrying habits of a specific long time owner.
I find it ludicrous to imply an antique piece must be abused to look correct.
07-31-2015 03:53 AM
And I didn't imply that at all. I merely pointed out the difference in appearance between a brand new piece of silver and one which had some patination of honest wear.
You go ahead and buff or chemically treat your silver if you want to, but a harsh, shiny bright surface on silver items is never going to be attractive (to me, certainly and to most others, probably).
07-31-2015 07:52 AM
I find it ludicrous to buff out antique pocketwatches with a buffing wheel to the point that they look like Franklin Mint reproductions and that is what your posted examples look like.
Also, you say when these watches come in for work that they are in dreadfuful condition. Where are they coming from, active war zones? Ive been going to estate sales for 35 years and have bought many silver (and gold) pocketwatches and rarely do they show up in the horrible condition that you mention.
Just because you like the dunked and buffed overpolished look does not mean that it is acceptable. Your odd comparison of a Vette to a Prius might explain the auto bodyshop approach to watch buffing you are promoting. I shudder to think what might become of Abe Lincolns pocketwatch under your buffing wheel.
12-28-2017 07:32 PM
Agree that the hot water process is great time saver but recommend testing before using.
Some patterns of silverplate flatware (i.e. Oneida Ballad) tend to become damaged when left in this solution. The silverplate will literally peel off in layers.
The older silverplate flatware patterns tend to tolerate this process well. However the handles of knives, if left in hot water too long, will become unglued.
11-22-2018 02:11 PM
So where did we land on the answer? We just inherited some silver and gold pieces and are not sure wether to polish, dip or what. Seems to me it’s a personal preference. Sheesh so many opinions.
12-08-2018 07:14 AM - edited 12-08-2018 07:16 AM
It depends on whether you want to sell on or keep for yourself. If keeping then do what pleases you most, but if selling on then it's almost a rule in the antiques trade to present an item in as original a condition as possible and let the buyer decide what happens to it next.
It's worth considering that polishing soft metals like silver or gold will always remove some material which can never ever be called back into existence.
If you don't know a lot about antique silver or gold, then best to leave it alone. 'First, do no harm' as it were. (a hint for the novice . . . gold should need no other cleaning than a gentle wash in soapy water to remove dirt, as gold does not tarnish. Another hint; don't do this with a pocket watch 😉
patina (that accumulation of micro-fine scratches which gives silver and gold their attractive glow) should be recognised and preserved. it's important to look at objects both old and new ad nauseam until you can appreciate the difference in appearance that this kind of patina makes to an object.
Consider the argument settled 🙂
Whatever happend to 'brasso boy' aka deepsea shadow, I wonder?
12-08-2018 07:26 AM
12-08-2018 07:31 AM
12-08-2018 07:36 AM
Hmmmm, I did mention the name of a poster who maybe 'should not be named' . . perhaps he got a job as an ebay mod?
on this board? :-
03-19-2019 06:47 PM
03-22-2019 10:36 AM
no, it is not considered patina, it's tarnish.