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Curious about the "rules"

brigsby707
Enthusiast
Hello all, I'm new to the group, and just getting a feel for how things are done around here. Anyway, I had a couple questions I was hoping someone could answer. 1. Is there a way to do searches through previous posts? 2. With card editions, are open editions not allowed? 3. With limited editions, is there a generally excepted limit to the number of prints or is it open ended? 4. I've noticed that there are obviously a wide variety of types of media being used to produce the cards. But I haven't seen any "photos" per se. Therefore, are photographs not allowed? 5. If producing an edition of prints, can larger work be reduced to fit the size of the cards, or can the original only be a handmade ACEO? Thanks in advance for any help. Best Regards, Eric
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Curious about the "rules"

sockswithhotsauce
Enthusiast
Just dropping in to say.. Wow Eric... Wonderful artwork! -- Rosey
Message 16 of 28
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Curious about the "rules"

I think if we want to be accurate about this whole print business we have to acknowledge the difference between a print and a reproduction. No one really wants to discuss this because a lot of the current art economy is based on calling reproductions "prints." Limited or unlimited editions isn't really the issue. The issue is whether the image is original or not. Prints (the result of traditional printmaking processes) are considered multiple originals because they are not a copy or a reproduction of an image originally created using another process or medium. Every image is a unique impression (used loosely) made using a specific art process (intaglio, lithography, serigraphy etc.) If the image started life as a painting, drawing, etc. the copy of that image is a reproduction. Printmaking purists would scoff at the argument here about whether one kind of edition is superior to another because they're all just reproductions; worth the paper their printed on and whatever someone is willing to pay for the signature of the artist and the perceived collectable value. When you get right down to it; it's no different than tearing a picture you like out of a book or magazine and hanging it on your wall; except it won't be signed and numbered. mick

"All black and white, nice." ~ golders
Message 17 of 28
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Curious about the "rules"

Or, I could be full of it. mick

"All black and white, nice." ~ golders
Message 18 of 28
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Curious about the "rules"

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♥Cherie♥
Google me: Cherie's Art
Message 19 of 28
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Curious about the "rules"

fairywebmother
Enthusiast
Actually, Mick, you were only "full of it" in the Pez discussion. :) This is a tough issue for me, because I love to create graphics, in the computer. I spend just as much, if not more time creating totally, from my heart and soul designs digitally, as I do painting. It is not possible, however, to have an original....sigh...
Bettina Makley, aka Fairywebmother
The search engines know my name.
Message 20 of 28
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Curious about the "rules"

I'm not sure about that. (not having an original that is; not my full of it status). If the computer is just another tool like a brush or a camera and with it you produce unique images then why are they not original? I think there may be a big loophole in there somewhere...or I could be full of it..just NOT about PEZ.

"All black and white, nice." ~ golders
Message 21 of 28
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Curious about the "rules"

brigsby707
Enthusiast
Hey Mick, I don't think you're full of it and I think you make an excellent point. But the only real problem is that with the advent of digital means of reproduction and digital workflows being integrated into more "traditional" processes of printing, how then do you classify original digital works of art or art that has some digital process involved, whose means of creation can result in nearly indistinguishable multiples. Are they prints or reproductions? In my case, my prints are not "accurate" reproductions, in fact they are altered in that the prints are truly unique compared to the original. The original colors and values of the painting are not strictly adhered to. The digital files I use to print my reproductions/prints are absolutely monochromatic, only containing greyscale values, whereas the originals have color overtones and undertones because of the properties of the pigments in the paints I use. I chose not to try to "reproduce" my paintings because of the extreme difficulty involved in color management with digital printing. But the prints do have color in them, being controlled by the particular mixture of inks I use and the base tone of the paper they're printed on. And to complicate things one step further, because of the nature of the printing process I use, the prints I produce are, for all intents and purposes, identical. And, there is no physical limit to how many prints I can produce. So, are they prints or reproductions, original multiples or identical originals? I don't even know, so I generally just call them prints. Another twist to this issue is the concept of photography. Traditional photographs produced by hand were truly unique multiples because of the natural variations in developing the prints. But what of photographs that are printed via some digital process. Whether they're printed with a high end inkjet printer or the far more expensive laser and LED printers that use traditional photographic chemicals and papers, the end results are nearly indistinguishable, and any variations in the prints would be extremely subtle being effected by atmospheric factors, differences in temperature and chemistry or variations in the manufacture of the inks or papers. I think that because of these issues and more, the art world's practice of grouping reproductions and prints into a generic print category is an attempt to skirt these issues. In the end, does it matter? Personally I think it does, and that is why for me I do view my prints as reproductions, but at the same time make sure to clarify to any buyer that the image they are receiving is not "accurate" to the original painting and is therefore unique. End result . . . confusing. But definitely worth discussing. As to limited or not, Jillian makes a good point about the collectibility of the editions, as far as perceived by buyers. But I personally think that form of marketing is too often abused. One of the most notorious violators of this form of marketing, in my opinion, is Thomas Kinkade. It isn't uncommon to see one of his limited edition runs be made up of thousands of prints. An amount of prints that would plain and simply make their future value worthless to most collectors. But because the terms limited or standard numbered, are thrown in there, people eat it up and pay hundreds if not thousands for his giclee and lithograph prints, which in truth will most likely begin fading in the next 50 to 75 years due to the unstable inks and pigments used in his "highlighting" process (he employs "highlightists" ie: artists to add highly saturated color paint highlights to his prints). Granted this might be an extreme example but I think the most important issues here are honesty and integrity in your business practices, whether your selling a limited or unlimited print run. For me, an open or unlimited print run might end up only being 18 prints or it could be hundreds. The main point being that I'm free to decide one way or the other and not feel like I need to increase the price of the prints because I'm selling a specific number of them. But who knows I might actually be losing money if I don't sell the amount of prints I hope to. If that's the case then oh well. I think the real issue here is whether or not it is our prerogative as artists to decide whether we produce limited or unlimited runs. And, in the end the customers are really the ones who decide what is of value or not, collectible or not. Well, that's my two cents worth. Thanks again for the votes of confidence on the artwork. I think it is so important that artists work together, rather than hinder each other in there efforts to sell their artwork. I think we all have more than enough difficulties to deal with already without creating more problems. ie: win/win can exist. Your comments definitely make me feel like I've got some chance at success here. Thanks a million. Best Regards, Eric
Message 22 of 28
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Curious about the "rules"

brigsby707
Enthusiast
Took awhile to write that one and missed 19-21. But, the issues with digital artwork, in my opinion really are just a matter of semantics. Just because your artwork exists as ones and zeros doesn't make it any less of an original. But are the prints prints or reproductions? And round we go again. Eric
Message 23 of 28
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Curious about the "rules"

I don't think it's the potential variations from image to image that makes them prints. What makes them prints is that they are the result of printmaking and not some other process. I have a friend who is large in the reproduction market, selling editions in the 10,000 range. I have some etchings and serigraphs he did 30 years ago, before he was rich and famous. As far as I'm concerned those old etchings, that look very little like his very popular paintings (because they're etchings), are far more legitimate, authentic, original, etc. than the truckloads of reproductions he sells. He could paint highlights in the eyes of every print and they would still be reproductions. I'm old and cranky enough to think that maybe art has to be like golf. You have to use these obsolete tools and have all these limitations on distance and equipment or else it turns into something else. Which means if you invent a new game using gps and nano jets to get a hole-in-one on every hole, don't pretend it's the old game. If you make digital art, that's great, call it that. Just don't try to make me believe it's something it isn't. Most of us know that just because you've got a new tool doesn't mean making the art is any easier. I love being old and cranky.

"All black and white, nice." ~ golders
Message 24 of 28
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Curious about the "rules"

brigsby707
Enthusiast
Kudos to old and cranky! And fair enough on your definition, makes sense in a sort of cantankerous opinionated sort of way 😜
Message 25 of 28
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Curious about the "rules"

>>>somewhat turned off by the idea of limited editions as I see them as being a contrived construct to increase the marketability of the prints aside from prints produced by traditional means. In other words the origin of limited editions came from the fact that initially prints were made from plates that would wear out over time and therefore there was a naturally imposed limit on how many prints could be produced. And once that limit was reached the plate would be destroyed. <<< I first started as a printmaker - making my own woodcut blocks and silkscreen stencils. These plus stone lithography (not to be confused with commercial lithographic printing), etchings - other printing methods - were true originals in that the artist designed and executed the edition AS A PRINT - and the various ways of printing influenced the character of the finished art. Each print in such a limited edition is a true artist's original print. Most buyers now do not know the difference between this type of print (in which each print produced may have taken about the same amount of time as if the artist painted an original) and the commercially reproduced print. And no matter how good the printing process, now matter that the run is LE, the product is still a print of a painting, not an "original print." I have nothing against these as long as they don't pretend to have the same value as artist originals -- I have some prints of some of my favorite artists (I don't have a spare million or more dollars to buy an original). But I do wish there was a way to differentiate between these and the artist-generated original prints. Serigraph screens, wood blocks, lithograph stones, etched plates - after a limited number of prints, the "plates" of whatever material quit producing high-quality images - and that is why they were limited, and why they were numbered, with low numbers being more valuable because the prints had less chance of being flawed. The current practice of limiting commercial reproduction runs is meaningless with today's technology (giclee print number 55,000 looks the same as giclee print number one). The only advantage to a limited edition is the knowledge that there will only be X number of other pictures just like the one I have on my wall -- which means I will be very unhappy if I find out the artist has had another run printed of the exact same print...thus destroying the "limited" aspect (3 runs of 5,000 each adds up to 15,000 prints out there - not a very exclusive feature for collectibility). Every artist and gallery I've ever heard from on this considers that an unethical practice. Sue
Message 26 of 28
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Curious about the "rules"

Unfortunately they forgot to make me king of the art world so what I think doesn't really matter (unless you're taking my final exam). People can do what they want and call it what they want and I can remain woefully and blissfully behind the times. But, when you bring a reproduction to me (that you got for sitting through a time share sales presentation or won at the ruffed grouse society auction) and ask me what it's worth my answer will always be: whatever you or someone else is willing to pay for the artist's signature. As an art object, it has no intrinsic value. I harbor no more ill feelings toward people who can market reproductions than I do toward the maker of a nice whitening toothpaste. Mick

"All black and white, nice." ~ golders
Message 27 of 28
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Curious about the "rules"

fairywebmother
Enthusiast
Maybe "they" need some ginko biloba?
Bettina Makley, aka Fairywebmother
The search engines know my name.
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