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Reproduction sets

rascasso
Enthusiast
re: chesspy vz. lichess Dear brethren, I have some interest in this subject - on account of the first major repro set issued, the Lewis chess set copies. I understand the discovery of the Lewis set in its time created such enormous interest in these pieces that large quantities of reproductions in the most various materials were fashioned to sate the hunger of the public for their own Lewis set! andthis interest continues - even the House of Jaques in London has been selling Lewis repros! Considering the difficulty of visiting the British Museum - or the Scottish National Museum now - these copies have been of enormous benefit for a lot fo people, and some of the repros are even very appealing for workmanship and/or material. This Gaudi emanation set discussed has not made a singular historic piece available to the many - it is a high price luxury adornment in very expensive material - of dubious taste (the board) - to cash in on a neorich socialite section of society - that is if it sells. A perfect waste of good mammoth tooth. From an artistic point of view, it wd not make any difference if it was fashioned in ceramics, sea tang or painted horse manure. This set has no pedigree, no inherent reason to be except to gratify the tired eyes of those who've got almost everything - it is a high end version of souvenir trash, and does nothing to bring Gaudi closer to the public, on the contrary. Generally speaking, a repro is what it says - a reenactment of something created before. It may be useful if the original is gone or unavailable, but it will always lack the je ne sais quoi - authenticity, patina, mystics, the hallmark of the original artist, what have You. That is not dependent on the quality and value of the material used - mammoth tooth or resin, this just changes the cash value. If You walk though a town entirely reconstructed on the old lines - like the old town center of Warsaw, destroyed in WW II and reproduced afterwards - You will sense quite strongly where lies the difference. Best reegards to chess collectors galore, and a Great years End to all (polishing their chess sets, no doubt...) Nicholas
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Reproduction sets

rascasso
Enthusiast
But Guy ... no offense meant at all regarding any opinion of Yours .. check back ...You are answering a statement I have not made nor implied...on repros we mostly agree, they are a crutch for the real stuff ... I am just saying it is hard times for anybody connected with the production and commercialiisation of chess sets - and that goes for antiquarians or flea market sellers as well. In fact there is a strong headwind for anything related to chess - numerous toy makers or chess equipment makers have disppeared over the last 10 years...there is no demand for chess like fe for automobile enhancements... of course, You may say from a collectors point, who cares... bad times bring down prices, so I can enlarge my collection at a lower cost....but the reverse cd be true... good stuff gets scarce as sellers are not willing to part from it for a pittance... Exceptions confirm the rule.... Woe, woe for chess in general... cheers Nicholas PS Check Hastings... great chess there...
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Reproduction sets

Hi, guy, always remember that good genuine antique sets have been breaking all sorts of price records lately. I know that to some extent that's due to big name sales, buy good genuine sets with a checkable provenance will always at least hold their value and give pleasure. The problem with the repro market is that every drop shop kiddie and his uncle are getting on the band wagon, (as they see it) but collectors soon wise up and will only buy once or twice from these merchants. I know my views are unpopular with the new set collectors, but I'm steeped in the 'real' antique set world. I eat sleep and drink real antiques sets, I suppose I've seen as many as anyone in the world, and certainly more than most. I do get asked to restore newish sets, and there is for the most part nothing wrong with them, apart from no patina or charm, but if it was dads, or great uncle Fred's then it can be restored and no problem from me. Regards Alan D.
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Reproduction sets

racasso hi nicholas a polite exchange of views is good ,and its never about who wins. chesspy ok its not chess related ,but important all the same. over 2 years ago i spent £15.00 on a small pair of bone jars with lids . they had flags and historic looking details on them ,and i thought they looked charming and old. then i showed them to luke honey ,and tim millard .... ouch ... repro chiniese stuff made yesterday . well i still like them ,but was embarrised all the same. then on my last visit to portabello road ,i saw stall after stall of the authentic looking stuff on offer ,at double what mine cost me. what i noted was the opportunity for rogues to offer this fare as antique in isolation in nice display cabinets. there is no question the stuff is made to confuse/deceive .... looking at what genuine antique chess sets can sell for .... my observations are hardly rocket science. example ... a set of knights heads put on an old set missing them , varnish removed ,dyed ,then re done , to a rare upright. we both know the knights heads were made seperately , so its very possible. then of course artifical aging ,plus antique boxes ,poor photos ,low start bids .... buyers ? many live in places where such antique sets are never seen ,so how they can be fooled seems tempting if the rogue sees a decent profit somewhere. remember the indian erbach set in germany ...of camel bone .... buyer £500.00 .............now he took a big nasty hit.
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Hi, Guy, I nearly bought some of those myself the first time I saw them. It's a worry. I don't remember the set to which you refer, but I know what you mean. £500 is a lot to spend on something that turns out shlanter, (no correct that, £20 is too much for a fake!) Alan D.
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Reproduction sets

rascasso
Enthusiast
Guy , I am all for politeness - most people are - I live in a country where people start most sentences with : Excuse me.. And politeness is the punctuality of kings - or is it vice versa? Fakes of chess sets - and insidious attempts of cheating with artifically aged antiquities - I guessthere is more of this kind of horsefoolery over there in London. Check out Lisbon, it is full of the real stuff (not necessarily chess sets, though).... at good prices for a poundtoting hunter... rascasso
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Nicholas Portugal is England's oldest ally - for some reason we have never been at war - so I look forward to spending a few GBP there one day. I certainly wouldn't want to make a living selling modern sets in today's climate. Modern repros can indeed lower the value of antique sets, but there is no doubt that assiduous buying of good antique sets is still a fine investment. Like Alan D, I am an antiques man (though I do appreciate that others do like to collect modern sets, and I love the most modern gadgets). As such, I follow the oldest and safest advice: buy the best you can afford of a particular type rather than the cheapest of the next highest category. Robert van de Veur gave an excellent set of precepts for binding in one of these threads. Robert - post them again! Alan
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Reproduction sets

I have dug out Robert van der Veur's golden advice Important facts for new ebay collectors Collecting, especially in regards to valuable objects, should be based on knowledge. To that end, these ten golden rules about chess collecting serve as a guide: 1. Knowledge is power! As a beginning collector, you should spend at least 15% to 25% per cent of the amount you are planning to invest in your collection in literature. The more you know about your collecting field, the less your collection will cost you in the long term. Join an association that is related to your hobby like CCI; buy special magazines and books. Books and articles that are out of print can be copied from other collectors. Old auction catalogs are especially interesting since they often show pictures, designer information, age, manufacturer data and materials used, which can be useful for comparison. 2. Specialize! Few people can afford to collect everything. As a new collector, therefore, you should specialize early. Decide what you want to collect. There are many possibilities. Specialize, for example, in a topic like tournement chess sets, Plastic chess sets, Glass chess sets or Vintage German chess sets. 3. Collect from above downward! Do not buy 20 chess sets at $50 each, but rather one for $1,000. The less a chess sets costs, the more common it is, and the simpler to buy it. Rare sets, however, come up infrequently. If you have the opportunity to buy a rare set, give preference to it instead of buying several cheap and common sets. That rare chess set may never again be offered to you. Ask yourself, in this context, how much you want to spend on your hobby each year. 4. Examine each chess set carefully! At collectors’ meetings and fairs, you should examine each set that might be connected to your field of collection. Try to remember style peculiarities of the different chess sets; note the differences of the pieces. 5. Keep in contact with collector colleagues! There are many other collectors who collect the same as you. Many of them are trustworthy and already have some experience in their area of expertise. Meet them and try to benefit from their knowledge. 6. Speak to visitors at chess collecting meetings ! You might get the best things for your collection from your collecting colleagues. Many collectors bring their duplicates to collectors’ meetings – you chance to get something you may have been looking for for a long time. Furthermore, the meetings give you the chance to meet more experienced collectors. 7. Do not believe everything someone tells you! For most chess sets, particularly rare ones, a history is given, which makes doubtful sets better for sale. Trust only your own knowledge. A history may be fast invented for each chess set. 8. Study, study and study some more! Never stop studying. The most experienced collector learns constantly. Talk with chess collector colleagues, and look at everything in their collection that you can. 9. Be careful with every purchase! If you see something you absolutely have to have – something you’ve been looking for for eternity – be extra careful. You will fool yourself more thoroughly than any dealer, right after the phrase “greed makes blind.” Always keep in mind that as long as something is collected, fakes will be made. 10. The Chess Collectors. Fortunately, a world of information is available here at The Chess Collectors. So, read old threads give your comments or ask your questions! -- Edited by cpe1991 at 01/02/2008 1:22 PM
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There might still be a point for a new collector in buying some low-end antique sets just to study them.
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Kristjan If you like learning from your mistakes and enjoy paying for the privilege, then ebay is the place for you. There is simply no substitute for hands on examination before buying. If ebay is the only source of sets, then that is unfortunate. Even very experienced buyers get caught by photos. One very good dealer bought a Jaques recently on ebay and then found it consisted of half weighted and half unweighted pieces. He sent it back, and someone still bought it the next go round even though the seller was honest in the second description. Alan
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Reproduction sets

rascasso
Enthusiast
Alan, Your credo.. wait patiently and buy the good sets, and Roberts Ten commandments are sound advice to a novice - which I am not any more...I know what I like.. and I know what I can afford...and I have other passions... Still , I have now and then risked a speculative shot at some dirty old frogs (chesssets..) which all of a sudden have turned into lovely young virgins, with lousy fotos and totally gaga descriptions - I wd say there is a good chance of striking gold in 3 out of ten...and You get the thrill of a minor gamble to boot. I bought a couple of really miserable little sets on ebay and in old trash shops - and then, reading Roberts POW article on his site - it turns out they are just that - POW sets. There is a lot of blood, swweat and tears attached to such poor little artefacts... By the way, clocks... do You happen to know anything about Solora chess clocks? I asked on the clock thread, but nobody's home there.... Best regards Nicholas
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racasso hi nicholas your point about the internet chess sites being a hinderance to chess sellers is mighty interesting. in glasgow there is no doubt many players on cold nights, do choose to avoid their loved club . i must admit the vast majority of loyal club members i know are not that young . evan GM rowson scottish winner of the british championship twice ,and the current one jacob aghard is hardly causing a scottish chess explosion. also scottish chess suppliers closed down some time ago . they offered a choice of modern playing sets , clocks and so on .
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Reproduction sets

rascasso
Enthusiast
cpe, ...a very suspicious looking Jaques set was offered last week - amazingchessantiques - and bidders staid markedly shy of it. Strangely inflated shipping cost as well. On the flag drop a dutch ebayer snapped it up for the asking price of 550.- USD. Did You also feel it lacked credibility? Nicholas
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Nicholas As far as clocks are concerned, I am pretty good on 17th century, not bad on 18th century but after that my knowledge is rather patchy. Robert's rules are good for experienced collectors as well. My favourite is: "You will fool yourself more thoroughly than any dealer, right after the phrase “greed makes blind.”" Alan
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Reproduction sets

rascasso
Enthusiast
Yes Guy, in a way they are - but there is a larger trend - the migration of chess to the Internet and into digitalisation makes chess material more and more outmoded and superfluous. For example, chess players used to flock to bookshops to buy chess books like drug addicts - that is getting less and less. The young guns nowadays have a laptop, buy or copysteal CB disks, and find all the modern master games on the net for free instead of in chess magazines or tournament books. Guys like Aagaard and Rowson still write books - subsisting in a niche market?! - but probably sell more of the CB discs they edit - which are a kind of preproduct of book making anyway. Also, on a windy rainy night in Glasgow, Stockholm, London Berlin, or paris, who will toddle around to the Chess club/café/pub if he can sit at the computer in his underwear, and play blitz on ICC - all night long? The bigger chess shops - LCC and Niggemann in Germany - pay good money to be present on the sites where people congregate - ICC and Chessbase. There are 40.000 ICC members, and a couple of thousand Playchess members, and a a sizeable number of people on other chess servers - they have mediatized their chess passion. slainte Nicholas -- Edited by rascasso at 01/02/2008 3:25 PM -- Edited by rascasso at 01/02/2008 3:26 PM
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Nicholas From memory, the dealer did not know the height of the king because the finial was broken, but thought it might be bigger than 3.5". The photos were blurred because the centre of the lens had a flaw. Most of the label was missing, but I could just make out from the blur that it was pre 1890. Both kings were stamped, and it had 1880-1890 knights. It was probably OK. The price was $550. If it was a 4" set then that seems ok. But,I will not even consider a set if the seller does not provide decent photos. In junk shops, they hide their rubbish in the back of the shop where it is dark. On ebay, dodgy dealers use blurred photos at odd angles. You need to see all the pawns lined up etc, as used by rookx and ajedrez, who deserve to get good prices because they try hard. Alan Alan
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