Religion and Politics

[godopenedherwomb]

cpe1991 Hello Alan. I commend you for your even-handedness when dealing with this creation/evolution issue. I find it funny how most evolutionists tend to say that we should tolerate all beliefs and then they don't tolerate one. It happens all of the time. I am glad to be on the side of some of the greatest minds in history. I am speaking of academic minds, such as Isaac Newton to name one who was absolutely a creationist. I also find it quite funny that the term "creationist" or "creation" has been replaced by Intelligent Design. What a politically correct joke that is! What are we saying that some great intelligence designed and made us but He (It) did not create us? How absurd that is. I guess perhaps it leaves room for us having been created by aliens! 🙂 But then who made (created) them? chesspurr Hello Guy. I think that the reason people get upset about such a discussion is because it is one of the few things that really does matter. Religion can be defined as a belief that is held to with faith and ardor. So, when someones religion or belief is brought into question they often become upset or even angry. So, discussion of it is usually avoided. Now, at the risk of upsetting a few I would like to tell you what I feel about this aspect of this foundational debate. I feel that just as the story goes how the ostrich sticks its head in a hole to hide from a lion, thinking that if it can't see the lion then the lion can't see it, the evolutionist thinks that by sticking their head into the sand of evolution and then not being able to see God that one day perhaps, if there is a judgment, then they will escape the scrutiny of God. Please don't take this personally, I don't know what you believe. but it is truly how I feel. All... I don't know who the most intelligent human being of all time is. I would guess Adam. But let's say that it is a group member. Let's say for fun that it is Kristjan. Okay, let's say that Kristjan knows 1/2 of all that there is to know but he knows nothing about God or the things of God. Now here is the question... Is it possible that the knowledge of God and the things of God exists in the half of things that he does not know? OF COURSE. So, to totally dismiss the existence of God is. if not foolish. illogical, as Spock would say. So, until one knows everything they must admit that there may be a God and that He may also be the Creator. chessspy Hello Alan. Yes, I totally agree that every person has the right to make their own decision on what to believe. I also believe that it is a very important decision and that it is one that every person should put a lot of time and effort into. That I have done. I have come from being an almost atheistic, do-what-I-want-to-do evolutionist to be what I am today. I have done a lot of work on this. It is actually quite amazing how many people have never read the Bible and yet they usually have a viewpoint on it. I heard of a learned professor's epiphany concerning this once. He said that he was doing a paper on the American Civil War and he had a question about a certain cannon. He went to the history department and asked a civil war professor about it. The professor told him that artillery was not specialty. He told this young man that he needed to go see a certain professor to get his answer. He then heard the same man asked a question about God. And this professor who was so reluctant to speak on something as "unimportant" as a piece of civil war artillery was perfectly willing to tell another student all about God when he had never read the Bible. The point that I am trying to make is that all humans have an idea of what or who God is, right or wrong. And there are a lot of people therefore ideas about God. There came a time in my life that I truly began a search for God. I went to the Scriptures and I found Him. Now, I don't say these things to belittle anyone else. I used to think that one could "ascertain" God. I now am of the "learned" opinion that God must reveal Himself to man and that He is the God of the revealed Word, the Scriptures. All roads lead to God.... and then the judgment...but there is a way to escape the judgment. But that is for another thread or emails. This has made for some interesting chat. And I have gained respect for everyone through this talk. Of course there are going to be some disagreements but I think that we can still get along. I have found chess players/lovers to be some of the most thoughtful people that there are but I also understand well the story "The Emperor's New Clothes" I am just one of the stupid people who looks at the King and says that he is not wearing any clothes. I say this about evolution, by the way. Hey, I didn't start this you know! Someone offered their opinion on dinosaurs. So, I thought that I would offer mine. Now who was that trouble maker? :) Brad

[godopenedherwomb]

cpe1991 Hello Alan. I am a Messianic Jew an apostolic one. Please, don't become upset with my views even if they are contrary. There is an old Jewish saying that goes lie this. If there are 2 Jews in a room there are 3 opinions. The hope is that we can reason together and that perhaps we can all learn a thing or 2. There don't seem to be any others in here that are as literalist as I am. But that is okay. I just asked if there was so that we could perhaps email each other. neOromantic Hello Ty. I am glad to see that you feel that evolution is only a theory and not fact. There are so many that speak of evolution as being fact. I would very much like to continue our "debate". I have not and will not take offence at people's thoughts and or opinions and will attempt to not offend anyone. But the presentation of evidences is very important. I must tell you that I agree that there is micro-evolution (variation within a species) but I believe that there is absolutely no macro-evolution. Macro-evolution being the changing of one species to another. One more thing before I go. As for scientists now doing genetic experiments and creating "new" life. This is indeed happening but remember that intelligence is being put into these experiments. These new creatures are not happening by random chance. I had some friends who owned a junk yard and they used to mix parts from different cars together. Just because some of these different cars' parts were interchangable does not mean that the Mazda evolved from the Chevy and the Chevy from the Ford and the Ford from the Benz. These things were all designed by the same creator...man! Oh, one more thing! Those wall charts of man's "evolution" are merely figments of someone's imagination. What they show is just an idea it is not fact. Brad

[cpe1991]

Brad There is no proof of anything you can't directly see yourself. If a man with a long flowing beard wearing a white night shirt comes down and starts converting water into wine, quickens the dead, parts the Red Sea and gets the lame to walk, then that would be serious evidence that a superior being is around. Then if he clicks his fingers and a new earth appears in orbit, many of us would be convinced of creationism. On the other hand, just because you can't prove that God doesn't exist, it doesn't mean that he doesn't exist. Theologians and philosophers have been arguing about all this for years, and have got precisely nowhere. Further, if you can't understand how a cell could have evolved, it doesn't mean that it hasn't evolved. These arguments invoking science also get absolutely nowhere. Alan

[chesspurr]

one wonders what might have happened ,if a family arrived in ancient rome with a car .... then drove it around the circus maximus ... then the little boy took out a powered aeroplane ... and flew it about... and the little girl ,played her speaking barbie doll. would the relegious officials have thrown the family to the lions ? it seems to me that we fear the unknown , our scientiests and learned folks ,accept the challange and remind us of self improvement ,thus reducing our concerns ,as we develop our human race . what i do wonder what would happen today is .... what if the past powers of relegious officials were reinstated big time.

[gevork6]

The fact that I was able to win two lots at the recent Cholet Auction proves that there is God.... Art

[cpe1991]

Art It might also men that you have more money than sense, and that there is the Devil. These arguments don't prove anything. Alan

[cpe1991]

mean not men

[ne0romantic]

Well there are long strings of very similar genetic material in different species. Chimpanzees are 98% similar to humans, for instance. There are a ton of 'turned off' genes of other animals in the human genome, and our development mirrors evolution. If you look at the development of a cell to a fetus, to an infant you see what looks like evolution... the single cell... the zygote... the thing that looks like a tadpole... the thing that looks like the fetus of a fish.. then the fetus of a chicken... then finally the fetus of a human... then birth. It's an effect that can be actually seen which happens whenever a new human being is brought into the world and strong evidence for the theory of evolution. So it's not just that a piece of a Ford can be mixed with a piece of a Chevy. There are already pieces of the Ford in the Chevy. Now this doesn't mean the Ford necessarily evolved from the Chevy... but it possibly suggests it. Another bit of evidence for evolution has to do with the obvious imperfections in biological systems. We have vestigial organs like the tonsils and appendix. Many species of snakes have vestigial legs suggesting their ancient ancestors had legs that were usable. Two kinds of eyes have evolved. Mollusk have a much better designed eye with the nerve endings connecting at the back. Most terrestrial life has the nerve bundle connecting at the front which creates a blind spot. I've read a joke theory that the giant squid must be God's perfect animal, not man, and one of the suggested reasons is because God gave the squid more perfectly designed eyes. I've heard a lot of creationists insist God made man perfect, and if this is the case certainly the blind spot in the eyes, the organs which don't do anything (anymore) and such seem like imperfections. All of these things jive with the theory of natural selection. People also often talk about the theory of evolution with the term 'by chance.' They say something like 'the anglerfish could not have evolved by chance, it must have had an intelligent designer.' That suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of the idea of natural selection. One must go back and truly understand the mutation itself is perhaps chance, perhaps the hand of God, perhaps even based on a large scale change in diet of a population or a culture now that that connection has been discovered. Anyway many things that seem like chance can cause a mutation. The vast majority of these will be detrimental and the 'chance' changed creature will not live. Very rarely though the mutant will be 'better,' that is better suited to the current environment, mate, and pass on the new genes. Chance may or may not be involved, but chalk up evolution to 'couldn't of happened by chance' is a gross oversimplification. It doesn't happen by chance at all, it happens by selection.

[cpe1991]

ne0romantic What are tonsils vestiges of? Alan

[chessspy]

OK, how many cliked my link to the Bretheren? Alan D.

[knight_knight_zzz]

Alan D of chessspy.... I did try to click onto it. Actually, I was successful on the clicking part, but not in getting it to go anywhere... Was/is there a linking problem? (Or were you/are you pulling my leg and that of others?) If it was a joke, then I liked it! One happy face here! John, Vermont. (PLEASE... don't anybody DARE try to cut and past this! I am directly responding to an appropriate and directly thread related question... even if i did verbally simulate a happy face, said the word "joke" on this thread, and said I liked something! Hey - at least give me some credit / acknowledgement / positive feedback for being relatively brief! Two inane happy faces.

[chessspy]

GREETINGS EARTHLINGS, I am returned from the wall, My time with you is very limited, The Bretheren have finally made the breakthrough to the wall outside the cherry pit. (that is why you , the creature which calls itsef Johnfromvermont could not reach them). I have a warning about the creature which calls itself Kriku, THIS THING IS NOT A HUMAN, It is a..guch ..argh............

[chesspurr]

chessspy hi alan robots exist ... we made them. little green men may exist ... we invented the idea of them. who knows what is out there .... space the final frontier .... is it ? ah haaa ,,, ]:)

[chessspy]

GREETINGS EARTHLINGS, Beware creature called GuyfromScotland, The Bretheren will not be mocked!You have been warned.

[chesspurr]

chesspy hi alan i never mock .... the beliving brethern , i simply ask them questions that ... if were asked in the middle ages would have cost me my head .... today at least .... i have freedom of speech ....]:)

[timdewey2]

Hello everyone, This is a request for help, My Dad who is called Chessspy on line has gone missing. He joined a weird cult recently, called the brothers of something, and I got an e-mail last night to say he was going to the wall. ?? If you can contact him please let me know. Thankyou in anticipation. Tim.