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beehiveking · ‎12-31-2019

Hi,

I was looking at an old Canadian Sterling Silver Souvenir, but I don't recognize the "hallmark". It is a "Vancouver, British Columbia" spoon.

It's about 5 5/8 inches long and has exciting sites like the Court House, Post Office and Big Tree on the front stem.

The back has a hotel, the docks and a ship.

Enclosed is a picture of the hallmark.

Any information would be appreciated.

Bill from Bean Town

laurless1952 · ‎12-31-2019

It looks like a beaver. That would be John Sherwood & Sons.

beehiveking · ‎12-31-2019

Hi,

I think you are right about the "beaver" which I thought was a "Lion". The Beaver is the national animal of Canada, but I just looked up John Sherwood & Sons and I got this blurb: "J.S, & S stands for John Sherwood and Sons, a company based in Birmingham between 1858 and 1913. This version of the mark was used between 1865 and 1913 and the mark next to it represents a beaver which was also used as a trade mark by this company.

The crown mark was used by the Birmingham Assay Office and normally appears on Stirling silver items.

The last mark is a Gothic letter C used in this form as a date letter on Birmingham silver produced 1826-27 which predates this piece.

I'm going to assume that "Bimingham" is in England (not Canada). The "C" on this spoon is not "Gothic" and would be too early for this spoon. There is no "J.S, & S" on this spoon (though silver-makers changed their hallmarks all the time.

The hotel on the back of the spoon says C.P.R. Hotel which I believe stands for "Canadian Pacific Railroad" (later merged with the other big Canadian RR to form Canadian National RR...think "CN Tower". One of these RR's owned the "Princess Cruise Lines"

I have records thru "ancestry.com" where my father took the "Empress of Russia" across the Pacific and landed in Vancouver, BC in 1937. He then took the "Princess Alice" over to Seattle.

I looked up a pix of John Sherwood and Sons from the source link listed below and found a pix (pictures refusing to upload at this time). https://nacollectables.blogspot.com/2013/01/js-s-silver-plate-salver.html

This is like an episode of "History Detectives. ;-)>

Thanks for the help though I'm not 100% sure ?

Sincerely,

Bill

jrkirk · ‎01-02-2020

The makers hallmarks do not include the ship, and are only the marks adjacent to the word STERLING. A better photo of the actual hallmark would be helpful in proper id'ng.

lacemaker3 · ‎01-02-2020

@beehiveking

I'm sorry, but that doesn't look like a beaver to me. A beaver would have a humped back and a long tail that extends out behind the animal (real beavers drag their tails along the ground) like the ones shown below.

The mark for the Birmingham Assay Office is an anchor, not a crown. The crown was used by the Sheffield Assay Office until 1916, but I don't think this piece has a Sheffield mark, because

the mark is raised, not recessed in a cartouche like a true hallmark
it doesn't have either a duty mark (a bust of the reigning monarch) or a year mark
the C on this piece is not a year mark because it's not in a cartouche, and it looks like there is something inside it (more letters?)

JS&S made silverplate, not sterling. Their maker mark was the letters J S & S in a shield-shaped cartouche, which is not shown on your piece. Here are some examples of their pseudo-hallmarks on silverplate. This one is from the article you quoted:

https://nacollectables.blogspot.com/2013/01/js-s-silver-plate-salver.html

And another article discussing "The 'Beaver' Mark":

https://www.bexfield.co.uk/thefinial/v13-06/pg16.htm

UK sterling doesn't have a STERLING mark, because the Assay Offices in the UK used the Lion Passant mark to show that a piece was sterling. The STERLING mark was used by silver makers in Canada and the USA, and other countries.

Based on the provenance for this piece, I think you should continue looking into Canadian silver makers.

beehiveking · ‎01-03-2020

Hi,

I contacted the "seller" and all he could add was that the "number 3" was inside the letter "C".

I ordered the spoon to go along with another spoon I bought from this seller to save on S&H. Will try to take a better picture when I get it.

I do love to know the "provenance" of the items I own.

Bill form Bean Town

lacemaker3 · ‎01-03-2020

@beehiveking wrote:
Hi,

I contacted the "seller" and all he could add was that the "number 3" was inside the letter "C".

...

Caron Brothers of Montreal.

https://www.925-1000.com/canadiansilver_01.html

beehiveking · ‎01-03-2020

Hi,

I guess you are right about a beaver having a dragging tail. I don't know what other animals they used to mark silver with. I thought the "beaver" and Canada had a link. (I always thought their national animal was the Caribou).

I was watching a video from the man from the Antique Cupboard and he was showing a "Terrapin Tureen" decorated with turtles. I couldn't figure out what they served in it until I looked it up. It was "turtle soup" !

Did any company ever use a turtle ?

I took that same picture and "lightened" it up by 20% on Microsoft Word and then "sharpened" it as far as it would go.

The seller said that the was a 3 inside of that C on the back of the spoon.

Well I bought it and it was put in the mail in Los Angeles along w/ a Baker Manchester Chrysanthemum spoon I bought.

beehiveking · ‎01-20-2020

Hi,

I finally received this Vancouver British Columbia Souvenir Spoon and took some "better" pictures of the hallmark.

The first symbol of an animal still looks questionable. ( I'm starting to think it's the real Sasquatch. ;-)>)

The second symbol is obviously a "crown" of some sort.

The last symbol has a Large "C" with the number "3" inside of it.

In one of the pix, to the right of the "C" mark is the cruise ship the "Princess Victoria", part of the "Princess Cruise Lines" (think of the TV show "The Love Boat"). My father was on the "Princess Alice" from Vancouver, BC to Seattle in 1937, so that shouldn't have a big significance unless it was some radical, famous ship.

The spoon as lots of famous buildings and tourist sights of Canadian Vancouver, BC.

Curious to know if anyone knows this silver maker ?

Bill from Bean Town

lacemaker3 · ‎01-20-2020

@beehiveking wrote:
...
The last symbol has a Large "C" with the number "3" inside of it.
...
Curious to know if anyone knows this silver maker ?

Bill from Bean Town

Yes @beehiveking, I identified the maker a few weeks ago, in Message 7 on this this thread.

@lacemaker3 wrote:
@beehiveking wrote:
Hi,

I contacted the "seller" and all he could add was that the "number 3" was inside the letter "C".

...

Caron Brothers of Montreal.

https://www.925-1000.com/canadiansilver_01.html

beehiveking · ‎01-20-2020

Dear Lacemaker3,

Wow, you're a wiz ! You should go on Jeopardy. ;-)>

Is it fair to assume that the animal is not a "beaver" ??? Maybe it's a "lion" ? (I thought the Lion was British ?)

I wonder if there were "3" Caron Brothers ?

I was just looking up the SS Princess Victoria to get a bead on the date of the spoon. She was built in England and christened in Nov. 1902. She was brought to Victoria BC, Canada in March 1903. I guess the people in Vancouver were proud of their new, local ship and became sort of famous.

So I am going to assume that the spoon is circa after 1903 because it was the newest ship operated by the Canadian Pacific Railway Company (CPR). (The ship had a crash in 1950 and was sold and repurposed by another company and sunk in 1953).

The ships began with the elegant steamer the “Princess Patricia” that began cruising to Alaska in 1889.

Her career ended suddenly when carrying gold and passengers south from Skagway on July 13, 1892. The ship sank after hitting a submerged rock or drifting iceberg.

The popular “Empress” ships were already established in the Pacific, so the decision was made to carry out a royal theme, with smaller coastal ships bearing the prefix “Princess”.

Princess Victoria was the first purpose-built ship for the BCCSS, and immediately set the standards for luxury liners on the coast.

The smaller Princess Beatrice was the first of the CPR Lines built in British Columbia.

By 1907, Princess May and the new Princess Royal began regular 6-day sailings to Skagway.

A year later, the Princess Charlotte joined the fleet.

From 1910-1911, four more Princesses (Princess Mary, Princess Adelaide, Princess Alice and Princess Sophia) were built and a newly purchased ship was renamed Princess Patricia.

In 1913, Princess Maquinna joined the fleet.

As the years passed, the CRP continued to add to its fleet and its routes, replacing old ships with new.

Thanks,

Bill from Bean Town