eBay

sergbidder · ‎02-22-2019

I had a Return request opened after receiveing from a seller a musical instrument that had blemishes I didn't expect. I promptly sent the instrument back to him after the seller reluctantly accepted my return. Seller was less than cooperative all the way and tried to refuse my return, he didn't reply to my messages etc. Everything was forced by eBay.

Yesterday the tracking indicated the seller received my return. I message to him: Please proceed to refund. No response from him as usually.

Suddenly without notice I receive a message from eBay: 'The seller has asked us to step in and help with...'.

At the same time my Return request turns into a case with no reason stated with the notice from eBay: 'Wait we are still reviewing your case'.

What could happend to my Return request and why?

orangehound · ‎02-22-2019

@sergbidder wrote:

What could happend to my Return request and why?

This means that the seller has objected to the return, but they are not telling you why. The seller's reason could be claims like (a) the blemishes you noted were not significant enough to warrant a return, and are consistent with the photographs, (b) it was damaged in shipping, (c) that you damaged it or returned an item not sold to you.

eBay will review the evidence, and within less than two days you should expect to get a refund of money.

That said, if eBay judges that you had abused the Money Back Guarantee, then they could put a mark/note on your account. However it goes, you'll never know. But, there is a rumor out there that multiple abuses of the Money Back Guarantee could lead to the program not being available to you any longer or other account restrictions ...

sergbidder · ‎02-22-2019

Thank you for answering!

Does it mean that eBay can simply refuse to refund me based on the seller's objection?

Suppose the seller claims that I sent him a different instrument? Why should they trust him? How can they verify that? Why should they trust him and not me?

I mean they instruct me to send a return back to the seller but they don't tell me: "Send back exactly the same item that you received from the seller otherwise we'll refuse to refund you. "

Well, even if they told me that and I replied to them: "I assure you I'm sending back exactly the same item." and I actually sent it back why would they believe my words or otherwise how would they know the seller is not cheating on me and them?

I see this Buyer protection program has some loose ends.

orangehound · ‎02-22-2019

@sergbidder wrote:

Does it mean that eBay can simply refuse to refund me based on the seller's objection?

I've never heard of a buyer not getting a refund after shipping back the item with confirmed tracking. I suppose it could happen if you have multiple sellers accusing you of theft/fraud ... but eBay is quite liberal with returns, so I wouldn't be a bit concerned.

Suppose the seller claims that I sent him a different instrument? Why should they trust him? How can they verify that? Why should they trust him and not me?

eBay overwhelmingly "trusts" buyers over sellers. By "trusts", I mean that either the seller loses (i.e., refunds the money to the buyer) or eBay loses (i.e., refunds the money to the buyer). In either case, buyers win ... again, unless the buyer has multiple incidences of abusing returns.

I mean they instruct me to send a return back to the seller but they don't tell me: "Send back exactly the same item that you received from the seller otherwise we'll refuse to refund you. "

This is part of the policy of eBay ... you must return back the same item in the same condition as it was shipped to you. You cannot use it, break it, wear it, exchange it, etc. Here is the policy if you want to read further.

Well, even if they told me that and I replied to them: "I assure you I'm sending back exactly the same item." and I actually sent it back why would they believe my words or otherwise how would they know the seller is not cheating on me and them?

eBay can't always know, but they may look at a buyer's history of returns and take action if a buyer has multiple sellers complaining about the buyer's abuse of returns.

eBay's policy, generally speaking though, is to believe the buyer over the seller when evidence doesn't demonstrate a case one way or another ... as I sort of implied before, sometimes the seller will absorb the cost of the dispute and sometimes eBay will absorb the cost of the dispute, but either way buyers will get their refund. If you get a partial refund based on a claim from the buyer, then just appeal the decision.

I see this Buyer protection program has some loose ends.

Only for sellers ... not for buyers.

sergbidder · ‎02-22-2019

Thank you for replying again.

I see what you mean. It all makes sense to a certain degree.

castlemagicmemories · ‎02-22-2019

Did you check in the details of the case? It may tell you on what grounds the seller has asked them to step in.

You can call Ebay CS and ask them what happened. Explain that the seller has been difficult and what your experience has been. They can read messages between the seller and you so you can ask them to do this. You can get them to review the listing. Point out any discrepancies. If the blemishes were not disclosed, point that out. If they can be dimly seen in the pictures, point that out as well. Damage needs to be disclosed in the description and not just pictured.

I had this happen as a seller claimed that the item I sent back wasn't his when it absolutely was. CS then closed the case in my favor.

sergbidder · ‎02-22-2019

The now "case" that was initially opened as my Return request has no details about why the seller was granted an opportunity to turn it into a case. There are no details provided.

I have no way of calling eBay customer's support from my location. I can only send them messages.

You are absolutely right! The seller has hidden the blemished part in his pictures. His pictures are obviously 'beautified'. They show the items (brass musical instruments) so that they look better then in reality. The seller also deliberately avoided showing the blemished part of the trombone (ripples) by getting that location out of focus. He is very smart in doing that. In his description he was also very unclear but in a positive manner. He has an ability to turn potential blemishes into merits. I don't know how to explain it. He is very cunning.

castlemagicmemories · ‎02-22-2019

Ok, then send them a message about this.

I'm really sorry you ran into something like this. But you are protected by the MBG. It's there so buyers have recourse in situations where the item is not as described.

That's why the seller is supposed to disclose any flaws in the description. It can be easy to miss small details like that in a picture, that is why just the pictures are not enough.

You explained it well, I understand. No worries.

sergbidder · ‎02-22-2019

Thanks, yes I sent a message to eBay customer's support in reply to my previous communication with them asking about the reason of the seller's case. What else can I do?

The seller was somewhat cheating on me at this Return from the very beginning and I had to contact the customer support a few times.

The seller was supposed to provide return shipping labels but he failed and then he instructed me to ship the item back to him at my own expense and he suggested that he would reimburse my paiment for return shipping. I sent the item and he refunded me... as a partial refund on the original transaction! I contacted eBay support and asked them if that was a valid refund of my return shipping.

They replied to me: No, the seller had to send you a refund in a separate transaction, not as the partial refund on the original transaction.

I notified the seller about that and he began "playing dumb" on me.

He suggested that eBay didn't give him my PayPal address and he used what was available to him.

I then contacted customer support and asked them to share with the seller my PayPal address. I also found his PayPal address and sent him a request for refund.

He then said that if he sends me a separate refund of my return shipping cost in his own words: - What, then you send me back the refund that I already sent you?

I sent him a number of messages explaining that simple matter, I also sent a number messages to eBay customer support explainig the situation and they told me that while the seller was responsible for the return shipping cost they were limited in their abilities to control that situation but they assured me that they instructed the seller to refund me my return shipping once the seller receives the item in a separate transaction.

Then, strangely enough, after having received his item back the seller refunds my return shipping via my PayPal request and shortly afterwards applies to eBay to step in for unknown reason and they turn my Return request into a case.

That's the whole stoty.

I assume since the seller sent me my return shipping refund he mutually confirmed that I sent him back the same item that he sold me - Which I honestly did!

Then I suppose that the only reason for his objection could be his disagreement with my reason for return. Well... what can I say? I pointed out the blemishes that I didn't expect and he probably could disagree with me.

He is a high rating 100% positive feedback seller but this time I again confirmed to myself that the seller's feedback score can be very subjective. I once was in a similar situation and I then decided to never buy a used vintage item (musical instrument) from such 'beautifiers' because they have very smart ability to hide blemishes.

I don't really know how they can avoid receiving negative feedback!

castlemagicmemories · ‎02-22-2019

Sometimes feedback may be removed. That can account for why there is no bad feedback. Or it could be that other buyers may have chosen to not leave bad feedback. They may just want it to be over; or they may mistakenly think the seller can give them bad feedback. A seller cannot give a buyer bad feedback.

They cannot leave a negative for a buyer, nor can they leave a negative comment in the positive, green format. If they do, you can contact Ebay CS and they will remove it from your feedback profile, and they will give the seller a violation. If they have repeatedly done this, they can lose their selling privileges.

Please come back to your discussion here and update us when you know more.

sergbidder · ‎02-23-2019

eBay closed the case in my favour but what I'll never know is what was the seller's objection.

I actually asked eBay support about that but in their reply they omitted any details concerning the seller's reasons.

And you know what? - I'm too tired of this transaction to think of it any further and as such I'm just going to forget it and move on. So the seller retains his high rating... and thatr's how they get it.

The main problem with the vintage used items is it's sometimes difficult to judge their condition objectively.

Regardless of that the sellers should not use excessive vague praising terms in their descriptions instead of disclosing blemishes clearly and honestly. Let buyers judge the condition of an item themselves!

robot-hands · ‎02-23-2019

@sergbidder wrote:
Thank you for answering!
Does it mean that eBay can simply refuse to refund me based on the seller's objection?

If you have been gaming the system and getting reported or you have an unacceptable % of returns you may have gotten opted out of the MBG.

I have not seen someone that has in these forums so I don't know what you would see or how and if you are notified.

If you are all on the up & up the likelihood of you seeing a refund is about 1000% or more

modulok! · ‎02-23-2019

Sellers who think that not disclosing defects on their items is a good idea are either very low IQ or severely misinformed about how things work around here. They are just shooting themselves in the foot every time as the MBG trumps all. They will eventually learn their lesson to describe accurately when they are shelling out all of their profits by being forced to pay for return shipping labels on items not as described and paying an extra 4% in fees. Not disclosing and out right hiding defects on an item makes zero sense...zero.

no_zero369 · ‎02-24-2019

@sergbidder

OK, I am going to make a few comments and hope that the perspective provided is educational and helpful? Hope my style isn't to un-PC!

@sergbidder wrote:
eBay closed the case in my favour but what I'll never know is what was the seller's objection.
Hmmm, you achieved your goal and got a refund! That is a win!!! What difference does it matter what was the seller's objection? You won - focus on that, not the details.
I actually asked eBay support about that but in their reply they omitted any details concerning the seller's reasons.
eBay policies prohibit them from discussing actions take on any member's account! So while you are frustrated you can't know every last detail, on the flip side that policy protects you and your account too!
And you know what? - I'm too tired of this transaction to think of it any further and as such I'm just going to forget it and move on.
Yes, moving on and forgetting the details is a great idea. From this chair it looks like too much energy was spent focusing on details, rather than the solution! Oh I get it! I use to want to figure out every last little detail and comment on it or 'engineer' the details. Then one day a friend helped me see that I needed to work for a solution and forget side details - less energy expended. Once I did that it was easier to work "smarter, not harder!" Less stress in life...
So the seller retains his high rating... and thatr's how they get it.
Leave a red donut and negative feedback. Keep the feedback professional. If you get emotional or unprofessional, then the seller can get it removed. "Just the Facts!"
The main problem with the vintage used items is it's sometimes difficult to judge their condition objectively.
Regardless of that the sellers should not use excessive vague praising terms in their descriptions instead of disclosing blemishes clearly and honestly. Let buyers judge the condition of an item themselves!
Now this part I agree with you 100%! It can be tough buying here! Pour over descriptions looking at the details or lack thereof. Look at the pictures to see what damages are shown, or as in your case, what the pictures do not show. Ask seller to provide pictures of "hidden" sides or clarify descriptions, etc.

But the key is that IF one gets something that is Not As Described, they are covered by eBay's MBG! While it is admirable to communicate with the seller to work out a solution, if the seller is a pip, one should just open an eBay case on their own, requesting a return/refund. If it truly is a NAD case, then the seller pays return shipping and issues a full refund. So use it if the need arises!

Oh and if you run into any "issues" in the future, please come back here, provide all of the details and ask for help. Plenty of helpful posters here - but the key is to do thing the "right way" as per MBG. Many do what they "think" is right and often end up voiding the MBG. So, please do not be afraid to ask!

Good luck!

castlemagicmemories · ‎02-24-2019

@sergbidder wrote:
eBay closed the case in my favour but what I'll never know is what was the seller's objection.
I actually asked eBay support about that but in their reply they omitted any details concerning the seller's reasons.
And you know what? - I'm too tired of this transaction to think of it any further and as such I'm just going to forget it and move on. So the seller retains his high rating... and thatr's how they get it.
The main problem with the vintage used items is it's sometimes difficult to judge their condition objectively.
Regardless of that the sellers should not use excessive vague praising terms in their descriptions instead of disclosing blemishes clearly and honestly. Let buyers judge the condition of an item themselves!

I'm glad they closed the case in your favor. I thought they would. I wonder if the format has changed and they are trying to protect the buyer by doing that. I had a case last year, very expensive, extremely limited edition piece, that had undisclosed damage, some seen in the listing pic if you knew it was there, some from improper packing. Opened a case and returned, seller challenged the return as yours did, but I could see the reason. He claimed it was not his item, when it absolutely was. Knowing that is not going to encourage confidence in buying~so possibly Ebay has eliminated the buyer being able to see the reason. Speculation on my part. I called CS and they closed the case in my favor.

I completely understand that by the time a case like this is over, you are worn out and sick of it and just want to move on, and I agree that over selling, over inflating an item condition is just a SNAD, significantly not as described, in the listing. An accurate description and pictures should be provided. You can leave a negative feedback if you care to.