Outside recourse for Sellers who are forced to accept a return on a high value item?

[industrialfactorysurplus]

eBays return process is flawed.  I am a seller of a “high-value” item that went completely sideways quickly.   eBay held my hand almost every step of the way and now I’m out $4500 + 3 weeks of my life in living hell + the cost of the item.  Seller beware.  If a buyer claims ‘not as described’ that’s the kiss of death.  You HAVE to accept the return even if the item was exactly as described.  Even if you state ‘no returns’.   😳🤯

I have hit a brick wall and have been unable to speak to a decision maker.  Their appeal process is seriously flawed.   They have VERY low standards in how they determine appeals.  

I am hoping someone has had luck in getting a response or has had a successful legal outcome in pursuing such a case.   This is a lot of money and no one seems to have common sense.  

What am I missing?
Here’s the list so far:

•BBB

•CFPB (Consumer Financial Protection Bureau) Washington DC

•Attorney Generals Office in my state

I hope no one else finds themselves in this situation.  Hopefully this thread will provide good information for others who find themselves in the same boat.  Am I **bleep** off?  You bet.  I am NOT going to stop until they make this situation right.  Their system automatically sets the seller up to fail.  I refuse to pay for their wrongdoings.  Period.

[tsylor-31]

Did the item come back to you?

[industrialfactorysurplus]

Nope.  Buyer still has it AND was refunded his money.  I was told to “stay in contact with him” they “usually” send the item back.  🤯

[tsylor-31]

You could take them to small claims court in their jurisdiction

[fashions4passionint]

Small claims court. 

I don’t see how they got their money back without returning the item if you accepted the return. 

[industrialfactorysurplus]

I’m a relatively new Ebay Seller. I’ve never had to deal with a return like this before. Especially an international one / a breakable valuable item. I was trying to work it out with the buyer as they suggested but I didn’t get my return label uploaded within their timeframe.  Apparently they gave me an extension however they failed to mention that to me.  Even though I was on the phone with them multiple times during the whole process including on the last day (I found this out after the fact)   I went over and beyond trying to work with the buyer.  This entire process has been a nightmare.  

[a_c_green]

Tell us what happened.

• What was the order of events?
• What was the item you sold? I see nothing in your Sold list as far back as end of September that comes anywhere near $4500.
• Which country was this item shipped to?
• Were you using the Global Shipping Program, sending it to a U.S.-based reshipper, or shipping it directly there yourself?

[industrialfactorysurplus]

Hi.  Thank you for your questions.  Hopefully I am able to articulate this in a way that makes sense.  I believe I have all of the accurate days and times.  I cross referenced this to my cell phone calls (of course during this I switched cell phone carriers so all of the calls are split between Sprint and At&t)

On August 22 2019 I sold 2 vintage 300 B Western Electric vacuum tubes for $4599 to a buyer that had been making offers for the past 10 months-ish. Prior to the putting the listing online I paid to have the tubes evaluated by a local business who specializes in vintage hi-fi tubes, etc. Once the tubes were tested and I found out that they should have a nice long life ahead they advised me on how best to proceed. Depending on the buyer I could look to get anywhere from $3000 to $4000 per tube, contingent on the market and availability of similar ones. They also stressed the importance of taking really good photos capturing each tube from all angles and presenting clear testing information which I did. I also put in language that there were ‘no returns’ and explained why. If they plugged the tubes into the wrong amplifier it could seriously damage them & that would be bad!

A little background Over the course of the last 10 - 12 months the buyer sent offers to me thru society_of_salvage. All lowball and he used all 4 chances. I had opened up a eBay storefront and starting to consolidate the two separate accounts into ( industrialfactorysurplus ). I reached out to the buyer through eBay and after a few back & forths I agreed to sell the tubes to him at a good discount and we came to a deal. The buyer is from China. His 100% positive feedback (160+ ) and past transactions, gave me confidence to sell to him. This being my most expensive item I thought I was cautious with the verbiage explaining the return process & protecting myself.

As far as shipping, not sure what happened there.  I know I had Global Shipping Service on the listing however it wasn't an option as I moved through that process .  I shipped the tubes through UPS but that was a major pain.  Because of the value I had to ship two separate boxes to fully insure them.  Fast forward to Wed, Sept 18 when the buyer started the process.  I was like, whoa - stop the press!!  You had more than enough time to ask for additional information and or clarify any questions. He didn't but that’s besides the point because he most definitely received the item as described in the condition listed. I’ll be honest, I immediately started to panic. I called eBay as soon as I saw the notification, I think that was on the same day but it could of been the next day Thursday Sept 19 The lady I spoke to told me that I needed to continue to try & work w/the buyer but if I wasn’t getting anywhere that eBay could help me by escalating the case. So I did......... via online -Tuesday September 24th.  On the next call (Friday Sept 27th) I was put in touch with a member of the high value team (HVT) for the first time. I explained the situation and he let me know that as a 'seller' I should NOT of escalated the case and that there was no undoing it. () the advice was the same, "continue to try and work with the buyer". Panic really set in because of the value, language barrier, the fragility of the item and my financial situation, etc. so I spent a lot of time trying to research and respond to the buyers complaint (which doesn’t make sense at all...) In one message of my last messages to the buyer I suggested that he take the tubes into a amplifier store and have them cautiously tested. He flat out said that he wasn't going to help... Even though I stated that I was more than willing to make it right if he could send me some information supporting his claim. On Sat Sept 28th I realized that I’m going to have to allow the buyer to return the items. There was no working this out.  I knew I was under a timeline I sent the buyer another email & when I didn't hear anything I jumped on the UPS website to attempt to create a return label. <<<<< Not a eBay issue >>>> but I spent about 4 very frustrating hours on the UPS website w/o success. I tried call UPS customer service but it was only automated so I called eBay late, about 10:30ish EST on Sat night, Sept 28) to let them know the situation. I was told that "We can see that you're still actively communicating with the buyer and not to panic, I still had time". There were some emails back and forth Monday & Tuesday. During the final phone call w/ HVT on Tuesday evening (October 1, 2019) he talked me off the ledge explaining that once I attach the return label, eBay kicks into “seller mode” and he has 10 days to get the package to the post office. WHEW! I told him I was so relieved to hear this. I would take I fresh look at the UPS website first thing in the morning -Wednesday Oct 2 (which was a success!) and upload the label w/ very detailed return instructions in the message. Which I did.... I thought all was good. I found out later that I missed the "new timeline extension" when I uploaded the label in the morning.... This is very hard for me to understand. I didn't realize I was under such a short timeline. It was indicated to me several times that they could see that I was "working with the buyer".  Assuming that was still the case as I had been in touch with the buyer multiple times on Oct 1st and 2nd. It was very clear as to my intentions, if someone would of taken the time to read the correspondence.  (see screenshot) especially since I spoke to someone on the HVT Wed evening, Oct 2. Nothing was said to me about missing the new deadline. I certainly wasn't trying to delay the madness and I 10000% didn't spend all this time jumping through hoops to drop the ball at the midnight hour and create mass chaos in my life!!

When I got the "denied" notification I had the first of several lengthy phone calls with the HVT. 2 hours on October 14th, 2019  I was told during that call that the only thing I could do is continue contact with the buyer and that “usually they will send the item back”. I was 1000% beside myself. The next call on October 15th the HVT guy I spoke with said he’d read all the team notes and that he wasn’t going to give me any different decision then the guy I spoke to the night before.  I don’t think anyone has looked at the actual information with the correspondence... I realized after the first phone call w/ HVT that I brought the entire thing on myself by escalating the claim. But in my defense I did what the initial lady told me to do.  I put my trust w/eBay that they’d protect me as a seller and I called every step of the way.  I provided honest upfront information as quickly as possible.

I’m very skeptical of the buyers intentions especially due to the fact he wouldn’t take them to get tested. The photos he sent of the tube claiming "silver coating on the tube has been greatly reduced can clearly be seen in any of my photos". Besides, that has nothing to do w/how long it has left. The whole reason I paid to have the tests done were to show potential buyers what was what so we didn’t get into this exact situation. The fact that he “suspects and ‘worries’ has nothing to do with ‘not as described’. If he had questions he should of asked. The test results are the test results which were clearly displayed on the listing. It’s either buyers remorse or he damaged the tubes. Regardless, it’s all of me now. He hasn’t had to prove anything.  Often he delayed responding to me and/or flat out didn't answer certain questions. Someone from eBay who is a audiophile should’ve been weighing in on this case from the beginning. It is clear as day to a tube / amp guy and could of been squashed almost immediately. His claims are easily missed by anyone but an enthusiast.

During this entire debacle my PayPal was on lock down to insure repayment.. Not having access to the money that I thought was mine during the time I really needed it has caused major major issues. Now I’m in a much worse off position. I stand to loose a lot more than $4550 if I don’t get the tubes back. I’ve got all kinds of money wrapped up in buying them to begin with.   On October 24th they refunded him the money and the appeals went no where   - - Common sense is not a factor - - 

So basically my life has been a roller coaster from the day I read the words "return" "not as described" and I've hit a brick wall.  I'm not sure what to do.  I've continued to reach out to the buyer and he has put me off and put me off.  The other day (Sunday Oct 27) he said he doesn't have the tubes now that he "shipped them abroad"  on Oct 22 or 23 . . .  WTH .... ummmmmmm WHY?  If the tubes were bad as he claimed why is he keeping them and why did he send them abroad??  This is all very concerning to me.  I've tried to appeal to his sense of right and wrong.  In one of the last messages I received from him later on Sunday (Oct 27) he said "I'll send it back to the electronic tube as soon as possible. It won't delay you too much time".    I haven't heard from him since.  I honestly don't believe he is going to ship them back to me and if he does, the tubes will have been switched out.   I have no idea what to do now. 

[frodobagginskennedy]

There is nothing you can do within FeeBay.  

Since this is an international sale  there really is nothing, no recourse, etc for you.  This has been a very expensive lesson.  I truly am sorry that this has happened to you.

[vintagecraze50]

I am certainly upset for you that you may not get these expensive items back. 

I hope that you do. Whenever there is a not as described claim here you must comply with a return request. When you ask Ebay to step in there are situations where this may help, and sometimes it seems better to just accept the return.  A lesson here is that you cannot expect that a no return policy will actually work here under most circumstances. Since your buyer is in China, I do not believe you have any legal recourse, but not sure. I think it best NOT to sell items this expensive online and especially internationally on the web unless you sell 30 4 grand items a month. That way, one 4 grand items wont set you back disasterously like this for you. 

[thehonorabletrader]

Please allow me to provide some information that may put things in Context For you.

First - You have agreed to accept and return any item you sell on eBay that a buyer claim is not as described. This is in the User Agreement. You also agreed to pay for the return postage. You also agreed that eBay could refund the buyer on an international return if you fail to provide a means of return. These are all terms in the User Agreement you agreed to by selling. Your failure to read and understand the user agreement does not move the responsibility to someone else the same way I can not simply get out of a speeding ticket because I failed to see the speed limit sign.

Second - You have agreed to accept the decision of any chargebacks from a credit card. This is in PayPal's user agreement. The reason this is there is that Visa will not allow anybody to accept credit cards that do not agree to these terms. Same for MasterCard, Discover, and American Express. It's not possible for a merchant to accept a credit card and not agree to the chargeback policies and buyer protection policies the credit card offers. Again, your failure to know this information does not absolve you of responsibility.

So, you are welcome to outside of eBay all you want, however, the reason I don't believe you will really get any traction is that everything you have said lines up with the eBay User Agreement and PayPal User Agreement terms. So in other words, these companies have done exactly what all parties agreed to.

It's a crummy situation and I am not saying you should accept this loss. I am just pointing out some more context. When it comes to making a sale and risk for that much money I would have personally taken the time to read the T&C and User Agreement.

[industrialfactorysurplus]

I get what you’re saying but I’m not sure how to reconcile the situation.  I’ll use your analogy regarding getting a speeding ticket.

I asked for a police escort to the Grand Canyon. During the route I told my various police escorts, “I’m afraid of getting a ticket”  they acknowledged and advised, “keep doing what you’re doing” “we see you’re still on the right path” I continued to follow as instructed. We drove into the night and all of a sudden we entered a unmarked construction zone for bridge repair. The escorts stopped just short... I went careening over the side, the wheels came off and there’s mass destruction at the bottom... looking back it was noted that there was 1 small sign 400 miles back, “construction ahead” none as we got near... It was dark and I was on phone with dispatch up until the very end.. 🏍💨🏜🚧🚨🚑⚰️ 

There is nothing ok about that. 

*I’ll respond more later when I get in front of my computer*

[glyph01]

@industrialfactorysurplus 

This is where it all went wrong:

"The lady I spoke to told me that I needed to continue to try & work w/the buyer but if I wasn’t getting anywhere that eBay could help me by escalating the case. So I did......... via online -Tuesday September 24th. "

eBay didn't help you, giving out bad advice. Maybe you have a case for damages. Get advice from a lawyer.

When a return is for SNAD, eBay should encourage return for a refund, not all this 'escalating to a case' business especially if the escalation can't be undone and there is no clear indication of buyer claiming some kind of buyer's remorse reason as SNAD in ebay messages somewhere. It's like they try to make less work but at the same time have to create some busy work for the employees to get in as well and it implodes causing sellers to lose their shirt as a consequence. The intent is to undo the transaction but perhaps eBay feels they will lose the FVF fee. I'm just trying to figure out eBay's motive/trade-off/point.

Don't know what this world is coming to, tbh. 

[industrialfactorysurplus]

I don’t get it either.  I really don’t.  They had to refund me the final value fees.  Of course during the debacle they forced their final value fees directly into my checking account which caused a lot of problems in itself.  

They are creating a lot of work for themselves.  One agent said that they now try and keep a “hands off” policy and not be the judge on which SNAD returns were valid.  He also told me that they’ve changed the policy more than once.  I asked a LOT of questions.  Ummmmmmm a blanket statement policy when you sell millions of different things seems counterproductive.   Vintage and rare items are still in the same box as a new watch.  I’m Really not sure what the point of the “high value team” is.  I appealed their decision and was declined.  Obviously I was perplexed.  Did anyone actually review the case???  Turns out they have a very LOW set of standards based on “Did eBay make a mistake at any time?”  Well, what do you consider a mistake???  Obviously I want this to go in my favor however this goes to the bigger issue.  I don’t understand how I can be on the phone with eBay and communicating with my buyer up until the very end and eBay immediately shuts the case.  This is insanely ridiculous.   (I found all of this out after the fact).  Did they not look at communications at all?  They are STILL about the buyers.

I’m not stopping.  I’m just not.  There is NOTHING ok about any of this.  This is my full time job now.  🤬🤯

PLUS, the buyer said they sent the tubes abroad after the fact?  WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN??   

Hello eBay!!!! See, he WAS A SCAMMER!!!! 

[thehonorabletrader]

Imagine that sign you mentioned "400 miles" back was a stoplight. The light was red and there was a sign that said: "press 'GO' once you've read this sign" and you press GO without reading. That is what happened.

When you sign up to sell on your eBay account they stop you and ask you to read the user agreement and the terms you are agreeing to.

I am not saying this makes the situation anymore or any less fair. What I am saying is that if you failed to read your rental agreement, or your user agreement, or your lease agreement, doesn't mean that you are not responsible for the terms you have agreed to. It's still crummy. It doesn't make it okay. But it's what you agreed to.