03-03-2018 06:34 PM
On September 16, 2014, an Uber driver named Barbara Ann Berwick filed a wage complaint with the California Labor Commissioner. Among other things, Berwick sought reimbursement for outstanding business expenses, namely for gas and bridge tolls. Uber argued that Berwick was not an employee and was therefore not entitled to reimbursement of business expenses. The California Labor Commissioner disagreed and ultimately awarded Berwick over $4,000 in business expenses and interest.
In arriving at its decision, the Labor Commissioner applied the “economic realities” test adopted by the California Supreme Court in S. G. Borello & Sons, Inc. v. Department of Industrial Relations. From that case, the Commission laid out the eleven-factor test for determining whether a worker is an employee or independent contractor:
Based on this multifactor test, the Labor Commissioner held that Berwick was in fact an employee. The court emphasized that the drivers were not involved in an occupation that was separate and distinct from Uber’s core business. In fact, the drivers are an essential component to Uber’s regular business operations. The Commissioner also found that Uber provided iPhones to their drivers, monitored their approval ratings by customers, and deactivated their accounts if they were inactive for 180 days or if their approval ratings fell below 4.6 stars. Uber also had sole discretion to set and negotiate the prices that customers would pay. And, the service – driving customers around – didn’t require a special skill.
The Labor Commissioner was not persuaded by Uber’s arguments that it didn’t exert much control over the drivers – for example, drivers could set their own hours, were not supervised on the job, and could refuse to accept customers. However, the Commissioner found that Uber still had a strong hold over the operation as a whole, and the nature of the work made detailed control over the drivers unnecessary. As a result, Berwick was an employee and not an independent contractor.
The independent contractor analysis is an individualized test, applied to each worker who claims that he or she was misclassified. In other words, the Commissioner’s ruling for Berwick doesn’t necessarily mean that all Uber drivers in California are employees as well. However, it stands to reason that if Uber treated its other drivers the same way it treated Berwick, it could have hundreds, if not thousands, of similar potential claims. As you might expect, Uber has appealed the Commissioner’s decision.
03-04-2018 10:59 AM - edited 03-04-2018 11:00 AM
Agreed. While ebay is not the same as Uber. ebay has it's hand in every facet of a seller's business. Controlling just about everything a seller does including returns, payment method and even pricing (forced best offer.) Which crossed a line.
As 3rd party sellers on online sites continue to grow, there needs to be some kind of outside protection be it from the courts or elsewhere. As it is, ebay and others do whatever they like, when they like with no consequences, no accountability resulting in over a decade of wanton seller abuse. That needs to stop.
ebay themselves recently referred to us as 'business partners' in their latest corporate babble. Ok, then start acting like it.
03-04-2018 11:29 AM
I get a 1099 from my bank for the interest they 'pay' me. Am I their employee or their contractor?
I got a 1099 from the Mutual Funds I was in. Was I their employee or contractor?
I get a 1099 from the payer of my pension. Am I their employee or contractor?
That's a 1099-INT or a 1099-DIV. Different animal entirely.
03-04-2018 11:32 AM
Why in the world would anyone want to be labeled as ebays, or ubers employess?
Presumably so they'll qualify for minimum wage protection, get unemployment insurance, have their Social Security and Medicare taxes paid by Uber, etc.
03-04-2018 11:35 AM
An Uber driver gets paid by Uber.
I thought the passenger was paying. Uber just intermediates the payment to the driver.
03-04-2018 11:45 AM
@the_fancy_foxwrote:Several decades ago I had a newspaper route (265 papers, car route). We were independent contractors. We collected the money and paid for the papers and supplies. They told us when to be into work, when to have the papers delivered, we were accountable for missed deliveries, the company owed the building and could fire you from your route if they saw fit.
The court ruled that the carriers were all employees.
I had one when I was 14. Bicycle.
Newspaper considered us independent contractors. They issued no 1099 though, but my dad was not going to allow me to violate the law / IRS rules for declaring income. I was below the income level requiring me to file a return, but in absense of me filing a return, because I was a declared dependent, he would have been required to declare my income on his tax return. He was in a higher bracket, and didn't want that, so he said I had to file.
I told him "That's (expletive deleted), I'm not doing that!". So he did it for me. Schedule C, the whole nine yards, total up expenses for papers bought from the newspaper, cost of bike tire tubes... utterly ridiculous. My income was low enough that I owed only a few dollars in taxes, which he paid for me... and low enough that he didn't lose me as a dependent/exemption on his return, otherwise I'd have been bureaucritized out of my paper route.
03-04-2018 11:46 AM
@mikeystoyzwrote:
And I will stand by my statement. California makes a legal basis for what it wants when it wants to.
Which is why eBay, and a lot of other companies, have moved to Utah or where ever, to get away from the loonies running government in California.
03-04-2018 11:52 AM - edited 03-04-2018 11:56 AM
@ted_200wrote:An Uber driver gets paid by Uber.
I thought the passenger was paying. Uber just intermediates the payment to the driver.
Uber does a lot more than intermediate a payment.
Uber sets the amount the customer will pay.
Uber sets the amount that the driver will be paid.
Uber collects the payment from the customer.
Uber pays the driver.
eBay does none of these things.
eBay does not set the amount the buyer will pay.
eBay does not set the amount that the seller gets paid.
eBay does not collect the payment from the buyer.
eBay does not pay the seller.
On eBay, sellers pay eBay to do things for them. If anything, there is more of an argument to say that eBay is an employee of the seller than there is an argument that the seller is an employee of eBay.
03-04-2018 11:56 AM
@luckythewinnerwrote:
@ted_200wrote:An Uber driver gets paid by Uber.
I thought the passenger was paying. Uber just intermediates the payment to the driver.
Uber does a lot more than intermediate a payment.
Uber sets the amount the customer will pay.
Uber sets the amount that the driver will be paid.
Uber collects the payment from the customer.
Uber pays the driver.
eBay does none of these things.
eBay does not set the amount the buyerwill pay - the seller does.
eBay does not set the amount that the seller gets paid - the seller and PayPal do.
eBay does not collect the payment from the buyer.
eBay does not pay the seller.
I'm not defending or supporting any of this. I'm just saying there's little difference between Uber and eBay, and a lot of difference between buying Windows or having a bank account.
If this Commission ruling against Uber in California is not over-turned, some eBay seller in California is going to do the same thing to eBay, and get the same result.
03-04-2018 12:02 PM
03-04-2018 12:02 PM
On eBay, sellers pay eBay to do things for them. If anything, there is more of an argument to say that eBay is an employee of the seller than there is an argument that the seller is an employee of eBay.
eBay is a vendor to the seller, who is neither an employee or an independent contractor, but is considered "self-employed" by the IRS. And if you're paying them more than $600 in fees, you're supposed to issue a 1099 to eBay for the fees you paid them, or else IRS can disallow your Sch. C expensing of your fees. Otherwise, in theory, eBay could dodge the taxes on the fees they collected, since you did not report to IRS that you paid them. How's them apples?
03-04-2018 12:14 PM - edited 03-04-2018 12:15 PM
03-04-2018 12:21 PM
Another excellent explanation of how eBay sellers cannot possibly be employees of eBay.
That's all based on what IRS says. Now... if some other governmental bureaucracy in California says something else... the whole thing makes my head hurt.
03-04-2018 12:39 PM - edited 03-04-2018 12:39 PM
@ted_200wrote:Another excellent explanation of how eBay sellers cannot possibly be employees of eBay.
That's all based on what IRS says. Now... if some other governmental bureaucracy in California says something else... the whole thing makes my head hurt.
If it hurts your head to think about things that will never happen, there is a solution. Stop pretending to yourself that they might.
03-04-2018 12:48 PM
@luckythewinnerwrote:
@ted_200wrote:Another excellent explanation of how eBay sellers cannot possibly be employees of eBay.
That's all based on what IRS says. Now... if some other governmental bureaucracy in California says something else... the whole thing makes my head hurt.
If it hurts your head to think about things that will never happen, there is a solution. Stop pretending to yourself that they might.
LOL! You're suggesting the OP is a hoax?
03-04-2018 01:04 PM
The court emphasized that the drivers were not involved in an occupation that was separate and distinct from Uber’s core business. In fact, the drivers are an essential component to Uber’s regular business operations. The Commissioner also found that Uber provided iPhones to their drivers, monitored their approval ratings by customers, and deactivated their accounts if they were inactive for 180 days or if their approval ratings fell below 4.6 stars. Uber also had sole discretion to set and negotiate the prices that customers would pay. And, the service – driving customers around – didn’t require a special skill.
The Labor Commissioner was not persuaded by Uber’s arguments that it didn’t exert much control over the drivers – for example, drivers could set their own hours, were not supervised on the job, and could refuse to accept customers. However, the Commissioner found that Uber still had a strong hold over the operation as a whole, and the nature of the work made detailed control over the drivers unnecessary. As a result, Berwick was an employee and not an independent contractor.
You may not see the parallels, but I'm pretty sure that eBay's claim they're a "managed marketplace" now, and not "just a venue" would work against them if an eBay seller ever filed a similar claim with the Commission.