05-03-2023 06:02 PM
After much consideration, I have decided to end my relationship with eBay. As a seller, I take great care to ensure my listings are accurate and honest, but unfortunately, I have consistently felt mistreated on the platform. Despite my efforts to provide excellent customer service, eBay's buyers seem to have the upper hand, and it's nearly impossible to maintain a perfect rating here due to abusive behavior. The platform's dispute resolution process is heavily biased towards buyers, leaving sellers vulnerable to unwarranted claims and refunds, and often resulting in lost profits and damaged reputation.
In addition to these issues, eBay's commission fee of 25% is exorbitantly high compared to the industry standard of 5-12%, which further puts me at a competitive disadvantage and limits my ability to grow my business. Moreover, eBay's business model appears to be outdated and unsustainable in the face of growing competition from other e-commerce platforms. In order to maintain its position as a leader in e-commerce, eBay must restructure its entire business model and prioritize the needs of its sellers.
While eBay still has an edge in the auction market, this is not enough to sustain its business in the long run. eBay needs to acknowledge the concerns of its sellers and take concrete steps to address them. Until then, I will be exploring other platforms that offer fairer terms and conditions for sellers, and a more balanced and equitable dispute resolution system.
05-04-2023 08:47 PM
@sakic92710 wrote:I used to keep 100s of listings on eBay. Now I have 29. Barely list anything new. I can use eBay without relying on it like I used to. As I stated, I will try my best to sell where zero fees are involved. I'm displeased with the site so that means I have to quit it entirely? My last 3 sales totaled almost $200 US. Why throw away potential to get that money?
"Or just use eBay as a supplement channel and take what sales you get."
05-04-2023 09:29 PM
Wow - I knew you would be chiming in at some point with your watered down "effective rate" and your eye catching charts - You need to check your math - Your "effective rate" is a percentage of the Item price PLUS the shipping cost - Exactly and the pricing/cost model I use is applicable across any type of sale regardless of whether a seller uses calculated/posted shipping costs or has free shipping. Shipping being a wash in this scenario, shipping is never a wash. there is no point accounting for it in a quick glance of your profit - You didnt make any money on shipping here, so why take the extra step to account for it - As I said MULITPLE TIMES and it is a fact - you made a $20 sale in this scenario, NOT a $30 sale($20 Item price +$10 Shipping).
The only thing more I can add is what I pull from your chart above - Maybe it will help you free your mind of whatever has got it stuck: It's not stuck You show the Approximate Payout after shipping & fees as $15.45, right? I'll agree with that - Thats the amount you have left after using the $10 the buyer forwarded to you to pay for shipping and for paying the $4.55 ebay fees RIGHT? Well, since $15.45 is 77.25% of the $20 selling price, that means the ebay fees represent 22.75% of the selling price RIGHT? Its simple Not exactly. math @dbfolks166mt and it shows it in your chart though you dont want it to...
Try running your math against the two following situations both of which are identical if the seller is smart in the way they price their items. Assume for simplicity that the seller purchased the shipping label from Pirate ship and not eBay. You can also, if you wish check it with the seller purchasing the shipping label from eBay but it should not matter and you should get the same fee percentages regardless.
Scenario 1
Item price - $20
Posted shipping cost - $10
sales tax rate - 7%
Scenario 2
Item Price - $30
Posted shipping cost - Free
Sales tax rate - 7%
I'm done with disagreeing with your watered down "effective rate" - If you want to continue this conversation, lets talk about what really matters here - PROFIT - Thats where its gets real ugly for the apologists...
05-07-2023 07:32 AM
@dbfolks166mt wrote:Shipping being a wash in this scenario, shipping is never a wash.
C'mon @dbfolks166mt - You constantly make statements to bolster your viewpoint that are not founded in reality or the purity of mathematics...
For those who offer FREE SHIPPING, shipping is ALWAYS a wash - The shipping is built into the price with no means whatsoever to overcharge on shipping - If you sell a item for $20 with free shipping and the actual shipping cost is $5 then what you have done is sell a $15 item with a $5 shipping charge built into the price - When accounting, you CAN'T arbitrarily show this as a $14 item with a $6 shipping charge to show you made $1 on shipping - why on earth would you even want to?
You NEVER sell shipping on this site - for those who offer calculated shipping with a handling fee, thinking themselves crafty by selling a $20 item with a $7 shipping/handling cost knowing it will only cost $5 to ship, then what they have done is UNDERSELL the item and OVERCHARGE the shipping - So then, shipping in a case such as this IS STILL a wash - The rules and laws of competition cannot be by-passed - You are in competition with the seller who does not overcharge in shipping who has the same item listed at $22 plus $5 shipping - You CANNOT list this item at $22 plus $7 shipping or you will get priced out of the market...
Shipping is nearly ALWAYS a wash...
05-07-2023 09:18 AM - edited 05-07-2023 09:20 AM
C'mon @dbfolks166mt - You constantly make statements to bolster your viewpoint that are not founded in reality or the purity of mathematics...
For those who offer FREE SHIPPING, shipping is ALWAYS a wash - The shipping is built into the price with no means whatsoever to overcharge on shipping - If you sell a item for $20 with free shipping and the actual shipping cost is $5 then what you have done is sell a $15 item with a $5 shipping charge built into the price - When accounting, you CAN'T arbitrarily show this as a $14 item with a $6 shipping charge to show you made $1 on shipping - why on earth would you even want to?
You NEVER sell shipping on this site - for those who offer calculated shipping with a handling fee, thinking themselves crafty by selling a $20 item with a $7 shipping/handling cost knowing it will only cost $5 to ship, then what they have done is UNDERSELL the item and OVERCHARGE the shipping - So then, shipping in a case such as this IS STILL a wash - The rules and laws of competition cannot be by-passed - You are in competition with the seller who does not overcharge in shipping who has the same item listed at $22 plus $5 shipping - You CANNOT list this item at $22 plus $7 shipping or you will get priced out of the market...
Shipping is nearly ALWAYS a wash...
You never answered the question or showed me your calculations to prove/substantiate your fee calculations. Show me the work this is about effective fee calculations and you have done nothing to prove you theory. As for the "purity" of the math I have a degree in mathematics and computer science and a MBA.
05-07-2023 11:03 AM
@dbfolks166mt wrote:
Try running your math against the two following situations both of which are identical if the seller is smart in the way they price their items. Assume for simplicity that the seller purchased the shipping label from Pirate ship and not eBay. You can also, if you wish check it with the seller purchasing the shipping label from eBay but it should not matter and you should get the same fee percentages regardless.
Scenario 1
Item price - $20
Posted shipping cost - $10
sales tax rate - 7%
Scenario 2
Item Price - $30
Posted shipping cost - Free
Sales tax rate - 7%
I'm not sure why you think where you buy your label has anything to do with the accounting results... I wont even go there...
Though, yes, I agree the fee percentages will be the same in the 2 scenarios above, for me and for you - But our fee percentages will not be the same because you figure your fee percentage on the Item Selling Price PLUS the shipping cost($30) - I figure the fee percentage on the item price alone($20) since shipping is 0-sum. If the buyer transferred you $10 to attain the shipping for him, and it cost you $10 to buy that very same shipping service, the $10 transferred by the buyer minus $10 spent on the buyers behalf = 0 - So why do we need to even consider shipping when figuring out what percentage ebay took off the top of your sale, which of course is the 1st step in figuring out profit made - You made a $20 sale, not a $30 sale - For some reason, the way you account for fee percentage is by adding that $10 shipping cost into the cost of your item like the buyer never paid for it...
05-07-2023 11:15 AM - edited 05-07-2023 11:17 AM
I'm not sure why you think where you buy your label has anything to do with the accounting results... I wont even go there...
Though, yes, I agree the fee percentages will be the same in the 2 scenarios above, for me and for you - But our fee percentages will not be the same because you figure your fee percentage on the Item Selling Price PLUS the shipping cost($30) - I figure the fee percentage on the item price alone($20) since shipping is 0-sum. If the buyer transferred you $10 to attain the shipping for him, and it cost you $10 to buy that very same shipping service, the $10 transferred by the buyer minus $10 spent on the buyers behalf = 0 - So why do we need to even consider shipping when figuring out what percentage ebay took off the top of your sale, which of course is the 1st step in figuring out profit made - You made a $20 sale, not a $30 sale - For some reason, the way you account for fee percentage is by adding that $10 shipping cost into the cost of your item like the buyer never paid for it...
The reason the shipping is included is because that is what eBay also applies the FVF to. There is a difference between FVF's and selling costs. If you apply your logic to both scenario's you will get two different fees as you call them because in scenario 1 you are going to subtract the shipping. In scenario 2 you cannot subtract the shipping since you don't know how much the seller factored in for it. I never said I factored in $10 for the shipping cost into scenario 2.
Shipping cost is a selling expense not a fee. Try it see what you get.
05-07-2023 12:10 PM
@dbfolks166mt wrote:
Scenario 1
Item price - $20
Posted shipping cost - $10
sales tax rate - 7%
Scenario 2
Item Price - $30
Posted shipping cost - Free
Sales tax rate - 7%
The reason the shipping is included is because that is what eBay also applies the FVF to. There is a difference between FVF's and selling costs. If you apply your logic to both scenario's you will get two different fees as you call them because in scenario 1 you are going to subtract the shipping. In scenario 2 you cannot subtract the shipping since you don't know how much the seller factored in for it.
Shipping cost is a selling expense not a fee. Try it see what you get.
- I already know at a glance the fee percentages are going to be EXACTLY the same in both scenarios, because I know I dont even need to look at the shipping - Question is, how is it you think these numbers wont be the same - How can they not be - Its the most simple math... Wouldnt mind knowing where you got your degree in mathematics - As a side note, In 1st year statistics, my professor informed me I was the only person to ever get higher than a 4.0 in his class in his over 20 years of teaching - On the final question of the final exam, which was worth 30% of the entire exam, I recreated and simplified the text book formula to receive additional points - He told me he ran it by several of his colleagues and it held up under every scenario or circumstance - who knows, it may be the new text book formula and someone else got credit for it rather than myself haha
Anyway here are your scenarios assuming that they are the same item and what you pay for shipping is the same as what the buyer paid:
Scenario 1: Item price - $20 / Posted shipping cost - $10 /sales tax rate - 7%
Total Sale = $32.10( $20 + $10 + $2.10) generates 13.25% ebay fees of $4.55(including .30 Transaction fee)
We never see Sales Tax, so Total Sale for accounting purposes is $30
$30 sale -$10 shipping = $20(net after shipping)
Net Revenue after shipping is $20(which is the items selling price)(which is and always was our only profit bearing number in this sale - we know it right from the start since shipping is a wash - I'm accounting for it here to show the work, though I really dont need to if I want to get a quick idea of what my profit after fees is)
So the ebay fees of $4.55 represent 22.75 % of the $20 net after shipping. end scenario
Scenario 2: Item Price - $30 / Posted shipping cost - Free / Sales tax rate - 7%
Total Sale = $32.10( $30 + $2.10) generates 13.25% ebay fees of $4.55(including .30 Transaction fee).
We never see Sales Tax, so Total Sale for accounting purposes is $30
$30 sale - $10 shipping = $20(net after shipping)
Net Revenue after shipping is $20(which is the items selling price)
So the ebay fees of $4.55 represent 22.75 % of the $20 net after shipping. end scenario
The fee percentages are exactly the same and how couldn't they be? -Please Please let this sink in this time
05-07-2023 12:51 PM - edited 05-07-2023 12:54 PM
- I already know at a glance the fee percentages are going to be EXACTLY the same in both scenarios, because I know I dont even need to look at the shipping - Question is, how is it you think these numbers wont be the same - How can they not be - Its the most simple math... Wouldnt mind knowing where you got your degree in mathematics - As a side note, In 1st year statistics, my professor informed me I was the only person to ever get higher than a 4.0 in his class in his over 20 years of teaching - On the final question of the final exam, which was worth 30% of the entire exam, I recreated and simplified the text book formula to receive additional points - He told me he ran it by several of his colleagues and it held up under every scenario or circumstance - who knows, it may be the new text book formula and someone else got credit for it rather than myself haha
Anyway here are your scenarios assuming that they are the same item and what you pay for shipping is the same as what the buyer paid:
Scenario 1: Item price - $20 / Posted shipping cost - $10 /sales tax rate - 7%
Total Sale = $32.10( $20 + $10 + $2.10) generates 13.25% ebay fees of $4.55(including .30 Transaction fee)
We never see Sales Tax, so Total Sale for accounting purposes is $30
$30 sale -$10 shipping = $20(net after shipping)
Net Revenue after shipping is $20(which is the items selling price)(which is and always was our only profit bearing number in this sale - we know it right from the start since shipping is a wash - I'm accounting for it here to show the work, though I really dont need to if I want to get a quick idea of what my profit after fees is)
So the ebay fees of $4.55 represent 22.75 % of the $20 net after shipping. end scenario
Scenario 2: Item Price - $30 / Posted shipping cost - Free / Sales tax rate - 7%
Total Sale = $32.10( $30 + $2.10) generates 13.25% ebay fees of $4.55(including .30 Transaction fee).
We never see Sales Tax, so Total Sale for accounting purposes is $30
$30 sale - $10 shipping = $20(net after shipping)
Net Revenue after shipping is $20(which is the items selling price)
So the ebay fees of $4.55 represent 22.75 % of the $20 net after shipping. end scenario
The fee percentages are exactly the same and how couldn't they be? -Please Please let this sink in this time
Nothing to "sink in" you are simply juggling the numbers. The effective rate is about the FVF's eBay charges on a transaction nothing else. They are part, and only part of the selling costs. Shipping is a selling cost not a fee. In scenario 2 you have no idea what the shipping cost was that the seller factored into the item price so you have no way to determine it or subtract it out of the calculation and why should you your are figuring the effective fee not selling costs. Your calculations should look like the following. Your model fails to hold consistency. Net revenue is a separate issue from the effective fee rate. In both of the following situations the $30 Gross revenue is what is going to factor into the 1099 that eBay issues you. The sellers bottom line net revenue will come once their taxes are done.
Scenario 1
Scenario 2
05-07-2023 01:02 PM
I already know at a glance the fee percentages are going to be EXACTLY the same in both scenarios, because I know I dont even need to look at the shipping - Question is, how is it you think these numbers wont be the same - How can they not be - Its the most simple math... Wouldnt mind knowing where you got your degree in mathematics
Sorry forgot to answer the school question. Degree came from a 4 year accredited state university. Masters came from an accredited state university as well. I am one of those old guys that used to program mathematical equations to develop computer modules using assembler language.
05-07-2023 01:14 PM
@dbfolks166mt wrote:
isaiah53-57 wrote: Anyway here are your scenarios assuming that they are the same item and what you pay for shipping is the same as what the buyer paid:
Scenario 1: Item price - $20 / Posted shipping cost - $10 /sales tax rate - 7%
Total Sale = $32.10( $20 + $10 + $2.10) generates 13.25% ebay fees of $4.55(including .30 Transaction fee)
We never see Sales Tax, so Total Sale for accounting purposes is $30
$30 sale -$10 shipping = $20(net after shipping)
Net Revenue after shipping is $20(which is the items selling price)(which is and always was our only profit bearing number in this sale - we know it right from the start since shipping is a wash - I'm accounting for it here to show the work, though I really dont need to if I want to get a quick idea of what my profit after fees is)
So the ebay fees of $4.55 represent 22.75 % of the $20 net after shipping. end scenario
Scenario 2: Item Price - $30 / Posted shipping cost - Free / Sales tax rate - 7%
Total Sale = $32.10( $30 + $2.10) generates 13.25% ebay fees of $4.55(including .30 Transaction fee).
We never see Sales Tax, so Total Sale for accounting purposes is $30
$30 sale - $10 shipping = $20(net after shipping)
Net Revenue after shipping is $20(which is the items selling price)
So the ebay fees of $4.55 represent 22.75 % of the $20 net after shipping. end scenario
In scenario 2 you have no idea what the shipping cost was that the seller factored into the item price so you have no way to determine it or subtract it out of the calculation and why should you your are figuring the effective fee not selling costs.
In comparison to scenario number #1, assuming we are talking about the same item being sold, if you cant understand that the selling cost in scenario number 2 is in no way shape or form determined by what the seller FACTORED-IN, but by what the seller actually PAID for the shipping, then there is no hope...
What does it matter what the seller "factored in"??? - If the seller "factored-in" $20 in shipping in that Scenario #2 $30 free shipping sale, but only paid $10 in actual shipping costs, the NET AFTER SHIPPING IS STILL GOING TO BE $20!!!!!!
Wow - Thats it - I'm done, I can see there is no hope in helping you see the truth - Enjoy that mathematics degree you got...
05-07-2023 01:20 PM
One thing that I have learned over the 23 years of selling on eBay is that personal feelings and running a business don't go hand in hand. I used to ask myself, "What would Walmart do?" When owning a business it is very difficult to remove "feelings" from the day-to-day operations, but one must be able to mentally survive. If you believe professionally as a business person it does not make fiscal sense to remain on eBay, then go with that. eBay is what it is. You cannot try to change something that you have no control over. So you work with what you have or walk away from it and go somewhere else. This sounds like where you are at. Go with that. I wish you luck.
05-07-2023 02:06 PM
I've been selling on eBay for more than two decades. I am sure much thought went into your decision to pull out. Seeing a seller leave is never a good thing; but sometimes situations have to be re-evaluated.
More than 2 years ago, I made the decision to stop selling a product that I had been very successful with. eBay eliminated several categories there, but the biggest blow came with the change to the Buy It Now-GTC thing. When I listed my items as auctions with a BIY option during the 7-day auction period, I got quite a few sales via BIN. So, I left eBay behind for those items and have been selling on another platform since that time.
The other platforms are good, but they don't have the reach of eBay. Another category of items I offer I sell primarily here on eBay. Overall, my customer experience is quite good; I have several repeat customers. I realize that your business is very different than mine. I wish you well in your future endeavors!
05-07-2023 04:19 PM
In comparison to scenario number #1, assuming we are talking about the same item being sold, if you cant understand that the selling cost in scenario number 2 is in no way shape or form determined by what the seller FACTORED-IN, but by what the seller actually PAID for the shipping, then there is no hope...
What does it matter what the seller "factored in"??? - If the seller "factored-in" $20 in shipping in that Scenario #2 $30 free shipping sale, but only paid $10 in actual shipping costs, the NET AFTER SHIPPING IS STILL GOING TO BE $20!!!!!!
Wow - Thats it - I'm done, I can see there is no hope in helping you see the truth - Enjoy that mathematics degree you got...
Glad you are done. I will waste no more time trying to explain something to you that you simply cannot understand or comprehend. I will however continue to refute any responses to future posts where you claim eBay is charging fees in excess of what is reality.
I have enjoyed my math degree it has served me well over the years both career wise as well as financially.
05-07-2023 04:44 PM
Welcome to the California way of treating people!
05-07-2023 05:33 PM
@dbfolks166mt wrote:In comparison to scenario number #1, assuming we are talking about the same item being sold, if you cant understand that the selling cost in scenario number 2 is in no way shape or form determined by what the seller FACTORED-IN, but by what the seller actually PAID for the shipping, then there is no hope...
What does it matter what the seller "factored in"??? - If the seller "factored-in" $20 in shipping in that Scenario #2 $30 free shipping sale, but only paid $10 in actual shipping costs, the NET AFTER SHIPPING IS STILL GOING TO BE $20!
Wow - Thats it - I'm done, I can see there is no hope in helping you see the truth - Enjoy that mathematics degree you got...
Glad you are done. I will waste no more time trying to explain something to you that you simply cannot understand or comprehend. I will however continue to refute any responses to future posts where you claim eBay is charging fees in excess of what is reality.
I have enjoyed my math degree it has served me well over the years both career wise as well as financially.
Refute all you want - you will only continue to embarrass yourself with your inability to understand even the simplest of mathematics - see you on the next post where another seller who understands how deep ebay is digging into their profit margins posts their dismay over fees that are 20% to 25% of their items selling price @dbfolks166mt