eBay

co4565 · ‎05-23-2018

I have been reading about internationally buyers using forwarding services to get their items sent to them in another country because I think I just got one of those buyers. He is not registered in the US, but has a US shipping address, which I googled, which is how I found our it was a forwarding service.

Online, I saw a lot of negative reviews and comments about this address and other forwarding services in general. Reading about this here, I understand that I should be covered because my responsibility ends with delivery to the forwarding service. Is this still correct? As long as my tracking shows that the item was delivered to the US address (which PayPal and eBay BOTH say are seller protection eligible) I should be covered?

I hope so, because I already sent the item! Yikes!

But, I started to think about this more and wondered if I would I also be covered if the buyer decides to scam and lie about the item that was received being the wrong item, damaged, or whatever? I know that ebay's MBG is voided in this case, but what about PayPal? What if an international buyer who used a forwarding service to purchase an item files a claim with PayPal for something other than "item not received", how would PayPal handle this? It seems that a lot of the scam comments were about international buyers (using these forwarding services) making claims that they were sent trash, damaged items or wrong items, or that they didn't get their items at all.

It may too late now, but I'd like to understand this better in case it happens again later.

phono_0490xxxxxx · ‎05-23-2018

@missjen831 wrote:
@jonathankirkland wrote:
Yes you should be covered.

We have seen cases where somehow buyers were able to open cases even though they used freight forwarders, but that is not supposed to be allowed to happen. I'm not sure if those were extremely rare cases or what.

Buyers are not blocked from opening cases when using a forwarding service.....these weren't extremely rare cases.

Just because the MBG doesn't cover items that are forwarded after delivery, it doesn't block a case from being open. A buyer can always open a case even if there is an MBG is exclusion....nothing is blocked.

Under what circumstances would a non-MBG item become a MBG item or subject to other 'case' seller liability?

I ask this to find a means of limiting liability for a seller - the sole basis for their fear of Internat trading being onerous ebay MBG conditions imposed by this ebay policy. I see it isn't 'fair' on small time sellers of collectibles there. It's limiting my trade capability and seems to be all in aid of marketing the scam GSP.

I have an Internat forwarding account in the USA for shipping to Australia. [you know]

The postal system is just as safe if not better at the Australian end of the shipping chain than what presents in the USA. [Y'all really should know this]

This forwarding account has been set up for use when a seller has listed as;

a) GSP [I do not want to be ripped off again by this scam] or

b) indicates they may ship Internat upon inquiry quote. [GSP is a $$ ripoff and prone to many issues such as heavy handed treatment of fragile items and/or confiscation of goods they deem prohibited] or

c) the seller is willing to ship using a just as safe and secure means directly to me, via say USPS [in which case no forwarding agent used at all - the cheapest, fastest and safest means anyway < no import duty payable, simple CN22 form submitted by sender]

An additional benefit of this FA address is that items that DO NOT show in search results due to 'no Internat shipping' unless the delivery address is USA, notwithstanding the fact my ebay account is Australian. [Did Y'all know this! ]

So, genuine question that, in the interests of fair ~~free~~ trade between smart enough to know risks and 'how to' ebay members.

How does a buyer retain some protection from valid claim on seller, but remove the 'block' that comes from ebay

slippinjimmy · ‎05-23-2018

I've shipped hundreds, perhaps thousands of packages via mail forwarders, I have NEVER had a single problem. That would include buyers is virtually all the "suspect" countries.

The issue is not where the buyers are located, it's not that they use forwarders, the issues people have are because of the type of items they sell (high risk electronics) or their failure to properly describe their items. Sellers of the later type would run into just as many issues if they were shipping direct and probably have the same issues selling to domestic buyers.

Forgot to mention, I'ver shipped to a few to that Delaware forwarder, no problems encountered at all. The same could be said about other forwarders that people claim are a problem.

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep

dtexley3 · ‎05-23-2018

@castlemagicmemories wrote:
@jonathankirkland wrote:
@missjen831 wrote:

Anyway I would think it'd be nearly impossible for someone overseas to return their item to the forwarding address that you would send the pre-paid label to in order for them to even be able to return it.
You would need to send the international buyer money via PP as a USPS label won't work for them.

Wrong! The seller is NOT responsible for the return shipping from overseas. You only have to supply shipping from the forwarding service back to you. The BUYER must make their own arrangements to get the item back to the forwarding service.

This is NOT the case for GSP, but for all other forwarding services this is the case.

@co4565 know your rights!

when the buyer uses a reshipper:

1. You are only responsible to get the item to the reshippers address. If the buyer does not recieve the item you ARE NOT responsible for a refund, it's on the reshipper. All you have to prove is that the item was delivered to the Delaware address.

2. If the buyer files a SNAD, the BUYER has to return the item to the US reshipper address within 5 business days. The seller is only responsible for the return shipping from the US Address.

3. If the buyer files a NAD, item damaged claim they must file it with the reshipper, you may have to fight eBay and/or Paypal, but the rules are clear that it's not the seller's responsibility to refund.

4. If the buyer files INR or SNAD on paypal, the same rules apply.

If the buyer files a CC chargeback it gets a bit stickier, you have to be very vigilant to make sure that paypal follows their rules and does not force a refund.

Member of the Grumpy Old Man crew

jonathankirkland · ‎05-23-2018

@dtexley3 wrote:
@castlemagicmemories wrote:
@jonathankirkland wrote:
@missjen831 wrote:

Anyway I would think it'd be nearly impossible for someone overseas to return their item to the forwarding address that you would send the pre-paid label to in order for them to even be able to return it.
You would need to send the international buyer money via PP as a USPS label won't work for them.
Wrong! The seller is NOT responsible for the return shipping from overseas. You only have to supply shipping from the forwarding service back to you. The BUYER must make their own arrangements to get the item back to the forwarding service.

This is NOT the case for GSP, but for all other forwarding services this is the case.

@co4565 know your rights!

when the buyer uses a reshipper:
1. You are only responsible to get the item to the reshippers address. If the buyer does not recieve the item you ARE NOT responsible for a refund, it's on the reshipper. All you have to prove is that the item was delivered to the Delaware address.
2. If the buyer files a SNAD, the BUYER has to return the item to the US reshipper address within 5 business days. The seller is only responsible for the return shipping from the US Address.
3. If the buyer files a NAD, item damaged claim they must file it with the reshipper, you may have to fight eBay and/or Paypal, but the rules are clear that it's not the seller's responsibility to refund.
4. If the buyer files INR or SNAD on paypal, the same rules apply.

If the buyer files a CC chargeback it gets a bit stickier, you have to be very vigilant to make sure that paypal follows their rules and does not force a refund.

Thank you, all of what you said was my understand of how things are supposed to work.

The trick, as always, is getting ebay/Paypal to understand what actually happened. And in cases like these it's getting them to realize an international buyer used a forwarding service.

But, hopefully the OP has nothing to worry about and all of this is purely a PSA, "the more you know" style.

phono_0490xxxxxx · ‎05-23-2018

from you post I reply to.

This is NOT the case for GSP, but for all other forwarding services this is the case.

Thanks for that. Very helpful.

This isn't clearly advised in the ebay marketing speal they present to sellers and buyers promoting this GSP. Why would they... it's a big negative feature of GSP.

I consider this as being 'economic with the truth', akin to a LIE... and a massive CON JOB.

Why sellers use GSP and refuse other time proven safe means is beyond my understanding.

I could have added that I do not hold any Credit Card accounts to fund paypal transactions, so no 'mess' potential there.

It's not like filling in a CN22 form is difficult.

And not all destinations have sales tax [GST, VAT] or import duty payable.

And there is means of tracking, 'sign for' requirement and notification of delivery the same as or better than provided by PB and this GSP.

AND if the seller ships directly there is no uncertainty about compromising protective packaging or confiscation of goods with no return to sender... as we see happen with many GSP compromised articles.

Seems it really is a case of THICK AS A BRICK when sellers refuse to ship other than GSP and not realise or admit the CON JOB that GSP marketing is.

femmefan1946 · ‎05-24-2018

honestly, I would prefer to send to a forwarding service for international sales,

If you look at it squinting, eBay has its own freight forwarding service.

The Global Shipping Program is chosen by the seller rather than the buyer, but it does almost everything freight forwarders do.

The seller's responsibility for delivery ends at the forwarder/GSP doorstep.

The forwarder/GSP deals with customs and import fees.

The forwarder/GSP takes responsibility for secure and prompt delivery to the customer.

The only responsibility that remains with the seller is shipping an item that is As Described. So if you sold a red sweater and shipped a blue one, you are still responsible.

But you are not responsible for high national duty, for national sales taxes, for slow shipping or late delivery.

pjcdn2005 · ‎05-24-2018

@dtexley3 wrote:

@co4565 know your rights!
when the buyer uses a reshipper:
1. You are only responsible to get the item to the reshippers address. If the buyer does not recieve the item you ARE NOT responsible for a refund, it's on the reshipper. All you have to prove is that the item was delivered to the Delaware address.
2. If the buyer files a SNAD, the BUYER has to return the item to the US reshipper address within 5 business days. The seller is only responsible for the return shipping from the US Address.
3. If the buyer files a NAD, item damaged claim they must file it with the reshipper, you may have to fight eBay and/or Paypal, but the rules are clear that it's not the seller's responsibility to refund.
4. If the buyer files INR or SNAD on paypal, the same rules apply.
If the buyer files a CC chargeback it gets a bit stickier, you have to be very vigilant to make sure that paypal follows their rules and does not force a refund.

PayPal does accept snad claims from buyers who used a reshipper but of course the buyer would have to pay return shipping.

marinermikes · ‎05-24-2018

@dtexley3 wrote:
@castlemagicmemories wrote:
@jonathankirkland wrote:
@missjen831 wrote:

Anyway I would think it'd be nearly impossible for someone overseas to return their item to the forwarding address that you would send the pre-paid label to in order for them to even be able to return it.
You would need to send the international buyer money via PP as a USPS label won't work for them.
Wrong! The seller is NOT responsible for the return shipping from overseas. You only have to supply shipping from the forwarding service back to you. The BUYER must make their own arrangements to get the item back to the forwarding service.

This is NOT the case for GSP, but for all other forwarding services this is the case.

@co4565 know your rights!

when the buyer uses a reshipper:
1. You are only responsible to get the item to the reshippers address. If the buyer does not recieve the item you ARE NOT responsible for a refund, it's on the reshipper. All you have to prove is that the item was delivered to the Delaware address.
2. If the buyer files a SNAD, the BUYER has to return the item to the US reshipper address within 5 business days. The seller is only responsible for the return shipping from the US Address.
3. If the buyer files a NAD, item damaged claim they must file it with the reshipper, you may have to fight eBay and/or Paypal, but the rules are clear that it's not the seller's responsibility to refund.
4. If the buyer files INR or SNAD on paypal, the same rules apply.

If the buyer files a CC chargeback it gets a bit stickier, you have to be very vigilant to make sure that paypal follows their rules and does not force a refund.

Not so! I lost my SNAD case on a reshipper in a pay pal dispute filed on day one hundred and seventy after the sale! I don't ship overseas, not because I don't like to but because my items are very fragile and I want them handled as little as possible.
I lost the case because I had no tracking number to prove it went abroad. I lost even after I proved the address I sent it to was a freight forward company. I did get my item back eight months after the sale. I was a expensive anniversary clock. It came back ruined and uninsured.
Not all frieght forward companies pull this. They are using a loop hole in the system to insure the over seas shippment at my cost. Don't think for a minute that just because you shipped it to a freight forward company that Pay Pal will rule in your favor!

dugoldstuff · ‎05-24-2018

I had a buyer from Japan use a forwarding service, which was called "Shop America." When I got the email through eBay about the forwarding service, I called eBay customer service. The first rep I got said it was a scam, and escalated it. The second one said no, it was legitimate. I did what she said and shipped. I had no problem. The customer in Japan got his item and left nice feedback.

tealt · ‎05-24-2018

@dugoldstuff wrote:
I had a buyer from Japan use a forwarding service, which was called "Shop America." When I got the email through eBay about the forwarding service, I called eBay customer service. The first rep I got said it was a scam, and escalated it. The second one said no, it was legitimate. I did what she said and shipped. I had no problem. The customer in Japan got his item and left nice feedback.

Your comment reveals a whole lot more about eBay CS than about forwarding services.

I live in fear of the day I might have to call CS about something that truly affects my business.

I've had Japanese customers who used Shop America and the transactions were seamless.

dtexley3 · ‎05-24-2018

@marinermikes wrote:
@dtexley3 wrote:
@castlemagicmemories wrote:
@jonathankirkland wrote:
@missjen831 wrote:

Anyway I would think it'd be nearly impossible for someone overseas to return their item to the forwarding address that you would send the pre-paid label to in order for them to even be able to return it.
You would need to send the international buyer money via PP as a USPS label won't work for them.
Wrong! The seller is NOT responsible for the return shipping from overseas. You only have to supply shipping from the forwarding service back to you. The BUYER must make their own arrangements to get the item back to the forwarding service.

This is NOT the case for GSP, but for all other forwarding services this is the case.

@co4565 know your rights!

when the buyer uses a reshipper:
1. You are only responsible to get the item to the reshippers address. If the buyer does not recieve the item you ARE NOT responsible for a refund, it's on the reshipper. All you have to prove is that the item was delivered to the Delaware address.
2. If the buyer files a SNAD, the BUYER has to return the item to the US reshipper address within 5 business days. The seller is only responsible for the return shipping from the US Address.
3. If the buyer files a NAD, item damaged claim they must file it with the reshipper, you may have to fight eBay and/or Paypal, but the rules are clear that it's not the seller's responsibility to refund.
4. If the buyer files INR or SNAD on paypal, the same rules apply.

If the buyer files a CC chargeback it gets a bit stickier, you have to be very vigilant to make sure that paypal follows their rules and does not force a refund.

Not so! I lost my SNAD case on a reshipper in a pay pal dispute filed on day one hundred and seventy after the sale! I don't ship overseas, not because I don't like to but because my items are very fragile and I want them handled as little as possible.
I lost the case because I had no tracking number to prove it went abroad. I lost even after I proved the address I sent it to was a freight forward company. I did get my item back eight months after the sale. I was a expensive anniversary clock. It came back ruined and uninsured.
Not all frieght forward companies pull this. They are using a loop hole in the system to insure the over seas shippment at my cost. Don't think for a minute that just because you shipped it to a freight forward company that Pay Pal will rule in your favor!

First off, I'm very sorry this happened to you! However, the reason you lost the SNAD on PayPal has nothing to do with using a reshipper, but with Paypal's ridicuolous 180 return policy that requires an ONLINE VIEWABLE delivery confirmation on day 179 when most carriers only allow online viewing for 90 days. You have to keep copies/screenshots of your delivery confirmations so you can supply them to Paypal and then burn up the phone lines to have them recognize that the item was delivered and you have proof. Not a fun process from what I've heard, but it's a Paypal thing, not a reshipper thing.

Member of the Grumpy Old Man crew

pjcdn2005 · ‎05-24-2018

@dtexley3 wrote:

First off, I'm very sorry this happened to you! However, the reason you lost the SNAD on PayPal has nothing to do with using a reshipper, but with Paypal's ridicuolous 180 return policy that requires an ONLINE VIEWABLE delivery confirmation on day 179 when most carriers only allow online viewing for 90 days. You have to keep copies/screenshots of your delivery confirmations so you can supply them to Paypal and then burn up the phone lines to have them recognize that the item was delivered and you have proof. Not a fun process from what I've heard, but it's a Paypal thing, not a reshipper thing.

Delivery confirmation is not required for a snad so that wouldn't be an issue in that situation. Also, I said in another post, a buyer does not give up their Paypal buyer protection when they use a reshipper so proving the item was sent to a reshipper wouldn't have helped the seller unless it was an inr claim or an unauthorized use credit card chargeback.

marinermikes · ‎05-24-2018

You are right about it being a Pay Enemy issue, but I think you misunderstand tracking. I did have the tracking proof to the reshipper in California. Te reshipper first lied and tried to file a INR with EBay. I had proof of delivery and it since it was way over the time limit and I had delivery proof I won the case.

Keep in mind this reshipper or frieght forward company is the buyer so to speak. I googled the address I sent it to and it's a freight forward company to Korea. They use their accounts to buy for clients abroad. They have dozens if not hundreds of user names and buy thousands of items a day.

I also discovered when I did the google search all of the hundreds of complaints about this outfit for the same thing. I can't mention the name of this company or this topic will go poof.

They filed the Pat Pal case a month later and I evently lost even after I went round and round with a Pay Pal rep. I actually made him google the address. He saw what I saw and seemed to be shocked about it. He also told me that in their investigations they never do a google search like that! That means that they do no investigation at all. No wonder most sellers lose.

He then told me that even though it went to the freight forward company that I would lose any way unless I could show tracking from the California address to Korea! Now how is a person suppose to do that?

I lost the case. Nine days later they print a label, they have tens days to do so and I get the tracking number. Sixteen days later they ship it! Yep sixteen days. About how long it takes to come from Korea to Cali. You try that on your EBay account. That's twenty five days to get it back to me. Where do you think it came from? Came back broken and unisured.

Free insurance abroad is what it's all about I believe. It's actually mail fraud.

Most reshippers don't do this. I hope it doesn't happen to you because there is no way to stop them from buying your items. Blocking them does no good because they will just use another account.

myangelandmyprincess · ‎05-24-2018

@pjcdn2005 wrote:
@dtexley3 wrote:

First off, I'm very sorry this happened to you! However, the reason you lost the SNAD on PayPal has nothing to do with using a reshipper, but with Paypal's ridicuolous 180 return policy that requires an ONLINE VIEWABLE delivery confirmation on day 179 when most carriers only allow online viewing for 90 days. You have to keep copies/screenshots of your delivery confirmations so you can supply them to Paypal and then burn up the phone lines to have them recognize that the item was delivered and you have proof. Not a fun process from what I've heard, but it's a Paypal thing, not a reshipper thing.

Delivery confirmation is not required for a snad so that wouldn't be an issue in that situation. Also, I said in another post, a buyer does not give up their Paypal buyer protection when they use a reshipper so proving the item was sent to a reshipper wouldn't have helped the seller unless it was an inr claim or an unauthorized use credit card chargeback.

But this isn't just an issue with reshippers. PayPal never provides protection on snad chargebacks You can send it domestic and it not reshipper and have this happen

“Birth certificates show that you were born. Death certificates show that you died. Photographs show that you have lived.” -Unknown

lucstal-shop · ‎05-25-2018

Buyer bought $980 from me last November 2017, files item not as described claim but actual text says he never received the item. Paypal asks for proof of shipment even though I purchased label thru paypal. Tracking has since expired on UPS website. I obtain PDF from UPS showing matching address and a pic of the signature. Still lose the case!!!!

These scammers know the loopholes and exploit them to the max. Somebody bought an Apple computer from me a few months ago and I refused the sale because it was a mail forwarder. They say you’re protected but you are not!