Penalty on Losing Dispute with Scammer!

[destrucity_shop]

I recently lost a dispute that I opened on a NAD case with a potential scammer and then was charged a $20 penalty fee. It's well known that ebay typically sides with scam buyers (even with preponderance scam evidence) but the main take away here is that ebay charges a $20 fee when disputing and losing a claim (which I was not aware of). 

I sold a book for $23. Item was delivered with tracking. Two days later, the messaged me claiming to not have recieved book, said they checked with neighbors, but package was absent (highly unusual though not impossible, but in thousands of transactions, this has only happened once where could be verified); buyer then asked for "the next step." I told them I had fullfilled terms of sale, and there was no next step on my part, since tracking showed delivered.  Buyer had very limited ebay history, amounting to 10 purchases or so. I was skeptical about buyers claims, so I blocked the buyer. Shortly afterwards, the buyer opened a "Not as Described" claim (with no details about item condition). I disputed the claim, and took screenshots of the buyer's messages claiming not to have recieved item, yet now changing their tune claiming INAD, and sent those pix, explaining buyers lack of ebay history, contrasted with my 10+ years of excellent ebay service. Not surprisingly, ebay sided with the (probably) scammer. This did not really upset me as value of item was not great. Of course I could have accepted a return, but I was mostly curious if ebay would side with me considering the evidence, or come to a compromise. However, I was unaware that losing a disputed claim would result in a $20 fee, which was more upsetting. Lesson learned. 

[kensgiftshop]

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@destrucity_shop wrote:

This was a matter limited to the eBay platform and it's claims process.  Bank was not involved. Ebay refunded buyer from my funds, and the dispute loser fee probably the same. 

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No, if you were charged the $20 fee, the dispute was with the buyers bank.

If it was a case through Ebay, you wouldn't have been charged the $20.

[reallynicestamps]

I have seen that eBay sometimes will reverse the $20...did you perhaps ask eBay about that?

When you got the eBay notice of the chargeback, did you supply the tracking number?
Did you ask for the return of the book?

Either could and probably would prod eBay into intercession on your behalf.

You probably would still have to pay for return shipping.

But only if the buyer continued with the chargeback at that point.

At this point, it's probably best to accept this as a learning experience. Everyone hates those.

You have advice on what to do if this ever happens again.

With nearly 5000 transactions ,  eventually one would have to go wrong.

[vintagecraze50]

This is the GREAT loophole in all online transactions. Whether the buyer was being honest about a not received item not sure about that, but the tracking showing delivered suffices for the transaction to go in the sellers favor REGARDLESS if this person claims porch pirate, wind blew the package away, blah and more blah. The loophole starts then when this buyer can reopen another case of NOT AS described for an item that they say, ‘I did not get it” which in my mind is absolutely crazy. They are allowed to do it though. I had one like that about 2 years ago. I uploaded a file with Ebay with info showing they had not won a not received case which they started first. Then a week later they open the not as described case. I uploaded more info on my opinion of what they were up to. They closed that case in my favor as well, but you got a CHARGEBACK, WHICH IS QUITE A DIFFERENT animal on here. Ebay cannot do a darn this when these happen except wait for the Bank card folks to make  the decision on the info you give them. Then the bank charges ebay the 20 bucks and you pay ebay THAT 20 BUCKS.

[destrucity_shop]

Yes, I thought about asking eBay to reverse the $20 but haven't gotten around to it, being busy with other things. To be clear, the issue here was an item 'Not as Described' case, which I escalated/disputed, providing evidence of contradictory statements from buyer. What I learned here was about fees on losing disputes.

I'm actually able to appeal eBay's judgement, but that would likely incur another $20 fee if I lose the appeal. An appeal would make sense on a high ticket item, but not in this case. To sum up, disputing a claim makes the situation more courtlike with an eBay rep as presiding judge, then paying a court cost if you lose, in this case a $20 fee.  

[destrucity_shop]

Buyer claimed non-recieved through the messaging system; not an official claim. However, after I decline to engage further, they opened a Not as Described case with NO details or pictures of item.

It's impossible for me to know if their item was stolen, post office error, or if they are a scammer, but lack of eBay history made me doubtful of their claims. 

[a_c_green]

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@destrucity_shop wrote:

I don't think buyer can open a case for 'item not received' since tracking showed "delivered." or am I wrong?  

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They can indeed file the INR regardless of the tracking, but you in turn should win that claim by providing the tracking evidence.

All that aside, they are still free to file a Not As Described after the INR, since a missing package could indeed turn up later.

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@destrucity_shop wrote:

So they went with the next option which was Not as Described.  I disputed their NAD claim, since they first wrote me claiming not to have received then item, and their NAD had no description of problem with item condition nor pictures on their part. I wanted to see how ebay would respond. They refunded the buyer completely, but added a dispute fee.  

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When you got the Not As Described claim, one reply option for you in the claim process is to request that the item be returned to you first. (Again, it doesn't matter if they were previously claiming that it had not been received.) Asking for the item back before refunding will put them on the spot to actually return it before seeing any money. If you let the claim time out instead, you will lose by default and eBay will charge you for a full refund to the buyer.

I know it may be obvious that the buyer is trying to scam you, but trying to explain that with logical reasoning to eBay ain't gonna fly. They don't have humans reviewing the disputes; they just go with their automated dispute/claim process, and you have a limited number of ways to respond. In the case of a suspicious NAD claim, your best strategy is to require the buyer to return the item first before he will get his refund.

[albertabrightalberta]

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@destrucity_shop wrote:

To be clear, the issue here was an item 'Not as Described' case, which I escalated/disputed, providing evidence of contradictory statements from buyer. What I learned here was about fees on losing disputes.

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NEVER, ever ever dispute a NAD case. You'll lose every time! Even if the buyer is lying, you must accept the return and issue a refund (if you want the item back) or issue a refund (without requiring the return). 

[albertabrightalberta]

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@stephenmorgan wrote:

I believe you are correct.

I read it as eBay only charges the Dispute Fee if seller disagrees and eBay has to forward their response (fight the dispute) to the buyer's bank and the seller loses the charge back then the seller is penalized $20 because of their challenge.

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I believe ebay collects the $20 fee from the seller only in cases that the seller loses the chargeback.

I've had a couple of cases of "unrecognized transaction" and they've been closed in my favor without any $20 fee and no loss of my funds.

[fashunu4eeuh]

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@destrucity_shop wrote:

Buyer claimed non-recieved through the messaging system; not an official claim. However, after I decline to engage further, they opened a Not as Described case with NO details or pictures of item.

It's impossible for me to know if their item was stolen, post office error, or if they are a scammer, but lack of eBay history made me doubtful of their claims. 

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Below is the eBay policy regarding payment disputes. It gives instructions on how to handle one to maximize your chance of prevailing, though rare.

https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/getting-paid/handling-payment-disputes?id=4799#:~:text=The%20payme....

Several posters have emphasized that this was not an eBay in-house Not As Described case. The $20 fee for losing the challenge is assessed only on a payment dispute opened by the buyer with their financial institution. eBay may act in your interests but cannot sway the outcome as it is out of their purview. They have no authority in such a case. The policy states:

”If you’re not eligible for seller protections, the refund amount will generally be deducted from the total of your Available, Processing, and On hold funds, and you’ll be charged a dispute fee. If you are eligible for seller protections, you won’t be charged the refund amount and we may also waive or refund the dispute fee.”

An additional policy discussing seller protections also reiterates the following:

“Dispute fees

When a buyer files a payment dispute, the seller will be charged a dispute fee if they are found responsible for the disputed amount. eBay will waive the dispute fee if the dispute is eligible for payment dispute seller protections.”

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/selling-policies/payment-dispute-seller-protections?id=5293#secti...

[mam98031]

@destrucity_shop 

" It's well known that ebay typically sides with scam buyers..."  You are correct, it is often said, that doesn't make it true, but it is often said.  When a seller loses a claim, they are typically upset and looking for someone or something to blame.  Ebay is the likely target.  It doesn't mean it is true.  Each case is different.  And the truth is in the details.

Ebay ONLY charges a $20 fee if you lose a Chargeback dispute.  That is when the buyer files their claim directly with the credit card company.

When the buyer opened the INR in Ebay, you didn't need to send any email or information into Ebay other than the tracking number.  If your tracking shows delivered, that is what would win the claim for you.  There was no need to try and throw shade on the buyer. 

Did the buyer actually close the INR in Ebay and then opened an INAD in Ebay [not their CCC]?  The buyer's "lack of history" as you put it had nor has a darn thing to do with the claims you were trying to battle.  That was meant as a slam against the buyer because you feel Ebay you should believe you because you have more history.  It simply does not work that way. 

Oh, it was a Chargeback and they said something was wrong with the item.  What did they say was wrong with it?

You tested something and it didn't turn out for you.  Not sure why you are upset, you knew you were testing it to see what would happen, no you know.  The $20 fee is in the policy too.

[fashunu4eeuh]

@destrucity_shop wrote:

“It's impossible for me to know if their item was stolen, post office error, or if they are a scammer, but lack of eBay history made me doubtful of their claims.”

Someone’s sales history on eBay is not a reliable measure of trustworthiness as a trading partner.

Having a low or no Feedback score reveals nothing about the character of the account holder. It can be entirely misleading to believe differently, because of the fact that Low or zero feedback users may be seasoned buyers using guest accounts.  

A scammer is just as likely to be an established buyer as a newbie. so being prejudicial towards an entire subset of shopper is akin to shooting oneself in the foot. 

If one cannot tell a scammer from a legit buyer based solely on a sales history, what does reveal a fraudster? The only sure way to determine one is dealing with a scammer is for the suspected user to act in a clearly unethical or nefarious manner.  Everything else is just speculation laced with suspicion.

[vintagecraze50]

I HAVE SOMEONE DOING THIS TO US RIGHT NOW. When you get these you get the USPS to do the research case on the GPS coordinates of where the package was dropped off. USPS MAIL CARRIERS SCAN those packages off when they are delivered and THAT SCANNER, records in their database where that package was delivered within a few ft.

[vintagecraze50]

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@destrucity_shop wrote:

Buyer claimed non-recieved through the messaging system; not an official claim. However, after I decline to engage further, they opened a Not as Described case with NO details or pictures of item.

It's impossible for me to know if their item was stolen, post office error, or if they are a scammer, but lack of eBay history made me doubtful of their claims. 

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When we get these I did not get it requests we start an official case with USPS online where they can confirm GPS coordinates of where the package was dropped off. We respond to the buyer telling them in their case that we are doing this to help them locate their package. This being good customer service if the PO actually did mess up the delivery, and this to 100 percent confirm that this package made it to their address. Somewhat of a way to catch someone making a False claim of non receipt as well and giving them NO excuses FOR THEIR claim. 

[tobaccocardyahoo]

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@albertabrightalberta wrote:

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I've had a couple of cases of "unrecognized transaction" and they've been closed in my favor without any $20 fee and no loss of my funds.

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There was an alternative procedure for banks to use instead of opening a chargeback dispute called a retrieval request. Many banks stopped using it. Some payment processors seem to lump it with chargeback requests. There is no hold on funds or chargeback fee associated with a retrieval request by the bank. What Ebay does is whatever the programmer decided it should do.

[kensgiftshop]

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@vintagecraze50 wrote:

I HAVE SOMEONE DOING THIS TO US RIGHT NOW. When you get these you get the USPS to do the research case on the GPS coordinates of where the package was dropped off. USPS MAIL CARRIERS SCAN those packages off when they are delivered and THAT SCANNER, records in their database where that package was delivered within a few ft.

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They are supposed to scan them when they drop off the packages, but not all do.

I had a mail carrier one day set at my mail box and scanned 10 or 15 packages while we were talking.