PayPal and returns

[gegeomc.9d1ixjpvb]

I would greatly appreciate any help.

I've tried finding this information and can't. 

Does anybody know what PayPal does in PRACTICE concerning so-called SNAD returns?  I've read their policies but I would like to know if they are like eBay in not doing any investigation whatsoever including requesting photographs and/or video, etc from the buyer?    

Or does PayPal actually do an investigation - a real one?  I'm seriously considering going to Bonanza and they defer to PayPal.  I would greatly appreciate anyone's help.  

[kaelykat]

Paypal handles item not received the same as eBay does. Upload tracking, if it shows delivered you win. If not, buyer wins.

As far as not as described... people can lose on eBay then go to Paypal and win so I'd say no real difference other than buyer pays return shipping on a paypal dispute.

This would be a question to ask on the Paypal message boards.

One thing to take into consideration, Bonanza doesn't have nearly as much exposure as eBay so your products will not be seen by nearly as many buyers.

[missjen831]

PayPal tends to look into the situation more than eBay does but that doesn’t mean they will accept photos and videos. Photos and videos don’t prove the condition of the item when the buyer received it. 

[gegeomc.9d1ixjpvb]

Thank you for your response.  I did ask on PayPal boards.  Waiting for a response.  Was curious if anyone here had experience with them.

What do you mean 'go to PayPal and win'?  So if a buyer opens a case, and as usual, the seller loses, the seller can go to PayPal and appeal?  If I read your post correctly, even if the seller wins their appeal with PayPal, the only thing the buyer has to do is pay return shipping.  The item is still refunded in full by the seller.  Did I read that correctly?

I know Bonanza doesn't have the exposure.  However, at this point, I don't care.  I know that sounds harsh. . . .it's beyond words for me that eBay won't even require the buyer to respond to a seller who wants to work it out between themselves.  It's sickening.  Add to that, the buyer doesn't even have to provide proof - something so basic, a two year old can understand.  It's downright fraud to allow a buyer to claim whatever the hell he or she wants with absolutely no proof whatsoever and it's taken to be gospel by eBay.  The seller has to pay everything plus get nailed on rating and feedback.  It's insane.  

It's especially so when the solution is so simple:

1.  eBay requires buyer to respond to seller within a certain number of days.

2.  eBay requires the buyer to provide proof in the form of video and/or photographs

3.  Instead of 30 days, eBay needs to take a chapter out of Poshmark and do 3 days to claim a return. 30 days is ludicrous.  How does the seller know where that item was in those 30 days?  Did their dog use it for a chew toy?

4.  If the situation is truly a he said, she said, split the cost between buyer and seller. 

What the (**)))**^% is eBay thinking?  Without sellers, you won't have buyers.  It's very simple.  Allowing buyers to commit fraud against sellers is completely inexplicable and inexcusable.

[gegeomc.9d1ixjpvb]

It's at least something instead of just accepting the buyer immediately.  

Further, I would look at tracking numbers when the item was received and then have a date on the photographs.  Even my old camera had dates on them.  

There are very simple things that can be done instead of allowing buyers to do and say whatever they want without no proof whatsoever, no consequences whatsoever and seller gets nailed at every single turn.

[missjen831]

When she said “go to PayPal and win” she doesn’t mean the seller. She means if the buyer loses an eBay case, they can file with PayPal and win. If the buyer wins an eBay case, the seller can’t go to PayPal and appeal. The seller can appeal with eBay. You have to respond to PayPal cases too, you can’t just ignore them and hope the buyer goes away. Otherwise you run the same risk of the buyer escalating and getting their money back. 

Tread carefully here, it’s against the rules to encourage selling on other sites.......

[missjen831]

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@gegeomc.9d1ixjpvb wrote:

It's at least something instead of just accepting the buyer immediately.  

Further, I would look at tracking numbers when the item was received and then have a date on the photographs.  Even my old camera had dates on them.  

There are very simple things that can be done instead of allowing buyers to do and say whatever they want without no proof whatsoever, no consequences whatsoever and seller gets nailed at every single turn.

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The dates on your pictures prove nothing. They don’t prove the condition of the item when the buyer received it. PayPal is really no different than eBay, both sides can provide the evidence but the buyer usually wins. 

[jonathankirkland]

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@gegeomc.9d1ixjpvb wrote:

It's at least something instead of just accepting the buyer immediately.  

Further, I would look at tracking numbers when the item was received and then have a date on the photographs.  Even my old camera had dates on them.  

There are very simple things that can be done instead of allowing buyers to do and say whatever they want without no proof whatsoever, no consequences whatsoever and seller gets nailed at every single turn.

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You wanna hear something crazy about Paypal?

Long story short: I bought a $700 widget, the seller uploaded tracking after a few days showing "Delivered" but I know I never got it. Confused, I called FedEx about the tracking number which they indeed confirmed to me was delivered to an adress in my city but NOT my address specifically. I opened an INR case with Paypal, which was closed in the sellers favor because it showed "Delievered" to my zip code. Insane isn't it? But that's all FedEx shows on the basic tracking info, is the zip code, not the address. You would think during a dispute Paypal could call FedEx themselves to get this info but they are NOT at all willing to do that.

I had to fight with an appeal and get proof that the address associated with that tracking number was indeed another address to win the case, but it was drawn out for 3 weeks and I was sick thinking I might lose $700... in the end I didn't but it was really scary thinking it was possible...

In summation, my estimation of Paypal's protection dropped quite a bit after that experience.

[gegeomc.9d1ixjpvb]

I know of one other company that does so I think there's some reason behind it.  In the case that photos prove nothing, then why do sellers provide photos?  There's no proof the items were sent in that condition.  

My point is there has to be a middle ground.  Simply accepting one side or the other wholesale is  wrong.  It's just discouraging to see so many sellers being nailed.  

[southern*sweet*tea]

The ONLY way a seller can protect themselves from bad returns, false SNADS, etc. is to NOT accept any form of online or reversible payment. No Paypal or other digital wallet, no debit card, no credit card, no checks, and no selling on venues that offer any form of buyer protection.  Cash only, or maybe some sort of virtual currency. 

Since those are not viable options when selling online, sellers have to protect themselves through self-insurance. A percentage of each sale goes into a self insurance fund to be set aside and not touched. This money is left available to cover any loss such as transit damage or fraud.

Your options for TRUE seller protection from false SNADS are to self insure, sell locally for cash only, or open your own website and take only virtual irreversible currency as payment.

[gegeomc.9d1ixjpvb]

How very true!

And how very sad.  There is no perfect way, but simple measures can go a long way.  

Something I forgot to add to simple measures is adhereing to the seller's refund policy.  As of now, a seller's refund policy is completely irrelevant.  If a seller has a refund policy of at least 7 days to claim a return, that is plenty of time and very reasonable.  That should set the basis.  But, sadly, I learned a refund policy is just words.  

[couldabeenworse]

If the situation is truly a he said, she said, split the cost between buyer and seller. 

From eBay's viewpoint, EVERY SNAD is "he said/she said".  Even if there weren't strong consumer protection laws, I don't see how angering BOTH sides solves anything.

[couldabeenworse]

Something I forgot to add to simple measures is adhereing to the seller's refund policy.  As of now, a seller's refund policy is completely irrelevant. 

Not exactly.  The seller's refund policy works fine with honest buyers.  There will always be crooks and weasels.

[gegeomc.9d1ixjpvb]

So hurting one party in every way possible is the only way to go?  Finding on behalf of one party with no proof and/or communication nearly 100% of the time is the only way to go?  There has to be a middle ground.

[gegeomc.9d1ixjpvb]

But the problem is those crooks and weasels are taken as right nearly 100% of the time.  And they seriously harm your feedback, your rating and take money and products from you.  I really feel there is a middle ground that eBay needs to reach.