INR Question fro today's Weekly Chat on Returns (Dec 6)

[mr_lincoln]

@mr_lincoln wrote:

INR Question

I’ve read a number of threads where a Buyer processes an INR while the package is still in transit as Tracking shows and can be proven by the Seller.  An INR should not be allowed if the package is still in transit.  Buyers are getting awarded the claim and Refund then the package shows up late (through NO fault of the Seller, just a slow shipment by carrier) so they wind up getting the item FREE … Sellers have absolutely no control over what happens to a package once it is put in the hands of any carrier so why should they be penalized for that?

What is in place to protect the Seller from losing both money and item in this scenario?

@mr_lincoln Thanks for this feedback. Typically a buyer should not be given both the item and a refund -- we do indeed take a look at tracking details, estimated delivery date, and the carrier and service selected. If it's still in transit, we understand that the package should have an adequate amount of time to arrive. There is still always a risk of packages taking longer than the estimated delivery dates -- especially during busy times like the holidays! -- so we'd advise using tracked methods and really you should be covered. I'd also advise using more 'reliable' shipping services (e.g. economy may not be the best during this time of year) if you're worried about the packages taking too long. 

@lauren*us  Sorry I could not get back to the Chat today to reply ... I appreciate your reply but it doesn't answer the question.  The issue is not how an item is shipped other than it has tracking as stated ... it could be a 1 day delivery or 1 month, it does not matter.  The issue is the carrier fails to deliver on time so the Buyer can open an INR and get their money back ... then if the item gets delivered (and again, these are real live threads where this has happened) the Buyer keeps the item, does NOT pay for it since they have already been refunded ... so back to the original question ... What is in place to protect the Seller from losing both money and item in this scenario?

[mr_lincoln]

@*eponymous*

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@*eponymous* wrote:

Time waits for no man (or woman) @mr_lincoln.

Whatever may occur after an INR case is decided is immaterial to the decision that finalizes the case.

Neither eBay nor any other being can go back in time and change the circumstances on that date to provide you with this utopian result you insist is both reasonable and possible.  It is neither.

History is what it is...

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As always, appreciate your insightful replies ... well written too, you've got skills!

[mr_lincoln]

@vintagecraze50

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@vintagecraze50 wrote:

I think part of the solution for this is to keep in contact with the buyer on the status of the delivery. If you see that a package is stuck some where, message the buyer with a thoughtful response letting them know that the package has some delays and that you are keeping track of it. I had a stuck package awhile ago and kept messaging the  buyer assuring them it was on the way, and it worked out quite nicely with no problems. Would help with them prematurely opening an INR.

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For myself I do that, just had one ship to Italy and the package got to Milan and only needed to go less than 2 hours away and it sat for over 2 weeks.  Messaged the Buyer, they laughed and siad it stuck in Italian Customs which is typical and they added that they should see it in a few weeks ... A FEW WEEKS???? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?  Some others posted that the Italian mail service is one of the worst.  It finally got delivered and Buyer is happy. 

[mr_lincoln]

@chrysylys

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@chrysylys wrote:

Had a case about a year ago.  I knew I wouoldn't get the item.  It had never been marked shipepd and the seller disappeared.  No longer answering messages and a string of negs started showing up.

The system STILL wouldn't even give me the option to open an INR until after the estimated arrival date.  Once that happened, it wanted another 3-5 days for the seller to respond.

Unless something (else) has changed, I don't see how buyers can open INRs too soon.

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I don't either but apparently they can ... I am waiting for the reply from the eBay Team that actually answers the question about how to handle these situations ...

[ersatz_sobriquet]

The problem as I see it is what sodelight pointed out about claim filing time. Ebay is holding sellers to a standard that the USPS doesn't even hold themselves to, the seller can't file a claim yet, USPS won't pay out, but sellers are required to pay out.

Now this is a big problem, the reason for this thread, and ebay has decided that we essentially are the courier, with all the responsibility, yet none of the authority. 

Frankly it doesn't appear that ebay cares, and this thread will fall on deaf ears. You could ask again directly for a blue to join this thread, but I think we are going to receive once again the canned reply. 

Small sellers of OOAK that could never replace the item with a second one mailed are being treated exactly the same as large sellers of multiples, as if we are Amazon prime, control delivery, and have another exact item in our back pocket to mail out if needed with no great loss to us. 

[odditiesandantiquities1]

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@sodelight wrote:
The allowable delay should be the equivalent of the time frame a carrier mandates before a shipper can file a lost package claim. This would be what the carrier foresees as a reasonable delay per their standards and experience, before a package is normally declared lost.

A seller shouldn't be expected to refund monies to a buyer before the shipping carrier will accept an insurance claim on the lost package. If ebay wants to grant it out of their pocket that's one thing, but to take it from the seller when odds are the package will likely be delivered is wrong.

If a refund is granted and the package is later shown delivered, ebay should send a message to the buyer to either pay for the item or return it. Failure to do so should result in buyer suspension. A buyer with any sense of morals would repay the seller. It's unfortunate these morals can be lacking in society today.

It's interesting that if a seller fails to pay ebay fees, they're suspended and the account put into collections. As ebay rightfully expects to be paid for services rendered. However, it seems to be perfectly fine for a seller to have monies taken for sales provided from a buyer, and the buyer is allowed to continue to make further purchases. Very hypocritical.

I would think the above to be a reasonable policy consideration. But I'm a dreamer!

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I like that idea Sodelight. I'm in the middle of one right now. But, it is something going to the Ukraine.

Went to the overseas depot in NY, November 4th then the next day it's on it's way to Missouri??? 

[mr_lincoln]

@ersatz_sobriquet  Yes, I agree with you that eBay holds the Seller totally responsible for the carrier's performance (or lack there of), which I have always contended is wrong.  As for copying one of the "blues" on this thread, the original OP was actually to one who replied to my post on the Chat yesterday.  It was a reply but not an answer.  And yes, there is the strong possiblity that the next reply will be along the same lines but one never knows. 

Its early on the west coast so I don't expect any reply until sometime later today if we do indeed get one.  Actually, I am pretty confident we will.

[llllady]

Kind of thinking out loud here through a migraine.  😞

I know everyone is not a fan of GD, but if you use the part that guarantees just the shipping time, doesn't that get you off the hook when a package goes astray?  Doesn't that put eBay squarely on the hook? 

[mr_lincoln]

@llllady

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@llllady wrote:

Kind of thinking out loud here through a migraine.  😞

I know everyone is not a fan of GD, but if you use the part that guarantees just the shipping time, doesn't that get you off the hook when a package goes astray?  Doesn't that put eBay squarely on the hook? 

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Sorry about the migraine ... was it my thread?  Yes, GD would put the late shipment on eBay but that's only to refund the Buyer's shipping cost ... I forget if it has anything to do with the item ... someone will correct me I am sure.

[llllady]

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@mr_lincoln wrote:

@llllady

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@llllady wrote:

Kind of thinking out loud here through a migraine.  😞

I know everyone is not a fan of GD, but if you use the part that guarantees just the shipping time, doesn't that get you off the hook when a package goes astray?  Doesn't that put eBay squarely on the hook? 

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Sorry about the migraine ... was it my thread?  Yes, GD would put the late shipment on eBay but that's only to refund the Buyer's shipping cost ... I forget if it has anything to do with the item ... someone will correct me I am sure.

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Thanks.  Nope, can't give you any credit for it coming from your thread.  I'm sure you are disappointed.  🙂 See, knew I was missing something through the haze! 

[missjen831]

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@mr_lincoln wrote:

@gracieallen01

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@gracieallen01 wrote:

There is nothing in place.

Yes, that sums it up but there should be something in place and that is what I am hoping they will do, put something in place to cover this scenario.   Its as simple as not letting the INR move forward ... now I will say that @nawlinsron2 makes a good point about putting a time limit on it, something reasonable ... but buy the same token the 3rd party should pony up the cash in the event the package is simple lost or stolen ... even it is a natural disaster the carriers should have insurance to cover thier losses as well as the loss for those who ship.  If the carriers have insurance that covers their vehilces and content and are getting $$ back they sure aren't sending the $$ for contents back to the shippers ... at least I've never heard of that happening ... if someone knows differently pease post.

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@mr_lincoln I think this another case of "they can but they won't". Because if they did start making the buyers repay, it wouldn't be a good buyer experience right?  If they can charge a buyer for a replacement item when the buyer fails to return the original item, then they can charge a buyer who files an INR, receives a refund and then receives the item. Not sure how many are aware but when a request is opened and a replacement is requested and agreed up, the seller ships the replacement, the buyer returns the original item, and if the buyer doesn't do it within 30 days IIRC, eBay charges them for the replacement! The buyer has a set amount of time to upload tracking & ship the original item back or they get charged for the replacement. So eBay CAN charge buyers who get an INR refund but they won't. 

Side note: I filed an INR yesterday unfortunately. And evidently ebay now gives the seller 4 business days to respond, when it was 3. The message on my screen specifically Stated "if the seller doesn't respond wihin 4 business days, ask us to step in and help. So the seller has until 12/12 to respond and I can't ask eBay to step in until 12/13. A whole week after I opened the case! 

[missjen831]

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@mr_lincoln wrote:

@chrysylys

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@chrysylys wrote:

Had a case about a year ago.  I knew I wouoldn't get the item.  It had never been marked shipepd and the seller disappeared.  No longer answering messages and a string of negs started showing up.

The system STILL wouldn't even give me the option to open an INR until after the estimated arrival date.  Once that happened, it wanted another 3-5 days for the seller to respond.

Unless something (else) has changed, I don't see how buyers can open INRs too soon.

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I don't either but apparently they can ... I am waiting for the reply from the eBay Team that actually answers the question about how to handle these situations ...

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I don't recall the thread but on Sunday I believe it was, disneyshopper shared her experience with an INR filed too soon. She has a 1 day handling time. Buyer paid on Friday 11/24, she shipped Monday 11/27, delivery ETA was Thursday 11/30, buyer was able to open an INR Tuesday 11/28! 

[sharingtheland]

Responding in general, not to jen...

I thought yesterday's chat was one of the more discouraging ones I've seen, and that's saying a lot.

The return "team" either didn't read the questions and therefore answers were not applicable, didn't understand the questions, never heard of the situations asked about, or kind of threw out policies *I'd* never heard of.  I'd have to reread the thing to pull examples.

Anyway, it was not an uplifting, helpful chat.  jmo

[missjen831]

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@sharingtheland wrote:

Responding in general, not to jen...

I thought yesterday's chat was one of the more discouraging ones I've seen, and that's saying a lot.

The return "team" either didn't read the questions and therefore answers were not applicable, didn't understand the questions, never heard of the situations asked about, or kind of threw out policies *I'd* never heard of.  I'd have to reread the thing to pull examples.

Anyway, it was not an uplifting, helpful chat.  jmo

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I agree with you. Most weekly chats have been unproductive for a long time IMO. No solid answers. lots of evasive answers (intentional? Who knows?). Incorrect answers because the responded misunderstood the question or didn't grasp the entire situation. (Intentional?). And a whole lot of "send us a message and we'll look into it". But yesterday's was just so bad. Not a single solid conclusive answer from the returns team. What does it tell you when you can't get solid answers from team that specializes in one area?

[mr_lincoln]

@sharingtheland

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@sharingtheland wrote:

Responding in general, not to jen...

I thought yesterday's chat was one of the more discouraging ones I've seen, and that's saying a lot.

The return "team" either didn't read the questions and therefore answers were not applicable, didn't understand the questions, never heard of the situations asked about, or kind of threw out policies *I'd* never heard of.  I'd have to reread the thing to pull examples.

Anyway, it was not an uplifting, helpful chat.  jmo

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I only had time to post my question then skedaddle ... I've seen this before and not just on eBay - replies but not answers.

[mr_lincoln]

@missjen831  

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@missjen831 wrote:

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I don't recall the thread but on Sunday I believe it was, disneyshopper shared her experience with an INR filed too soon. She has a 1 day handling time. Buyer paid on Friday 11/24, she shipped Monday 11/27, delivery ETA was Thursday 11/30, buyer was able to open an INR Tuesday 11/28! 

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I've read a few where INRs were processed - refund issued and then delivery occured and I seem to recall one (or more) like you mention, INR started before delivery date.