Foreign Buyer Using American Reshipping Company Asking for Return - Need Advice

[sweetsongsales]

So after having roughly 50 successful sales in the last four months on ebay, I listed my first higher priced item - a used laptop. I accepted an offer for roughly $500 from a buyer with over 300 feedback score, 100% positive. They paid within two days, and I shipped the package overnight.

It arrived the next day at about 2PM and within ten minutes they sent me a message claiming I had not sent them the laptop but instead two books. Which is absolutely NOT the case.

I began investigating and I discovered upon googling the address they provided that they are using a company that accepts packages at a Miami, Florida address and then reships them to people in foreign countries. This buyer has a pretty distinctly Russian sounding name, for what it's worth. The address is a normal street address but is then followed by a chain of letters and numbers, which I had assumed was some kind of PO Box but realize now is a customer number that lets the reshipper know the address to forward to.

The seller has asked for a return, which ebay is giving me until August 6th to decide on before a claim is possibly opened. So doing more research I see that ebay has pretty clear policies about reshipping and 3rd party handling. It basically says that a buyer surrenders their right to a claim if a third party is involved in the handling of their package.

So I wrote the buyer back and I said what is fact: that I did not send books, I *DID* send the laptop, that they are in a foreign country and using a reshipper who could have at any time stolen the laptop and be claiming there were books instead, that I am NOT going to provide a refund and he is welcome to attempt to file a claim at which point I will let eBay determine what's right. I also pointed out that the signature for who accepted the package is a totally different name than the name on the ebay account.

He wrote back within minutes; two messages. The first said that he "knows" I sent him books because I have listed books for sale previously on ebay. Which is... interesting logic. The second message said "You still have the nerve to say that you sent a computer when you know well that you sent books, you are a cheater, that is what you are and if I already opened the claim on ebay because you can't steal the money."

As far as I can tell no claim has been opened, just the return request, but I told him moving forward I would be communicating only with ebay regarding the issue, not directly, and I intend to do just that.

I'm just looking for guidance from more experienced sellers on if I'm handling this correctly or what I should be doing instead or differently.

Thank you in advance.

[valuestore]

That becomes a criminal matter, report to police nearest to where reshipper is, get file number. Maybe forward that information to the reshipper see if something suddenly re appears. A reshipper wouldn't be in business long if they are conduction ongoing fraud scams. 

[glgenterprise]

Has the buyer been messaging you directly through email or through the eBay messaging system? Make sure you ONLY communicate through eBay messages, If your buyer is trying to use email directly, make sure you tell them in the eBay messaging system to communicate only through that method. Also summarize what they said in outside emails in your messages to the buyer. You'll want to demonstrate that your buyer is not following eBay policies - it might help you with what seems like is going to be a eventual scam return.

The buyer opened a SNAD return. You really don't have an option to refuse the return without damaging your seller account. You can opt to not have the item returned to you, but you'll still have to refund the buyer. Since this is a obvious scam, you should of course be require a return of  the merchandise. Then if and when you get back a couple of books rather than your laptop, you'll have to pursue an abuse of the buyer protection with eBay. I've gotten an occasional courtesy refund from eBay, but not very often.

Unfortunately you really didn't have enough of a selling history to not be a target of scammers for higher dollar electronics.

[fab_finds4u · Accepted solution]

This is a transaction where the item will be shipped to another address after original delivery.

Not covered

• Items shipped to another address after original delivery

I believe once you prove delivery to the original delivery address and then you're done.

The reshipper would just forward the package to their client.  I don't believe they even open the package lest they be accused of switching items.  

I would refuse saying the buyer hasn't even received the package so how can he claim it isn't as described if he hasn't received it, and packages that are forwarded after original delivery are not covered.  

If you accept the return you'll have to refund no matter what they return.  At least this way if you're given the choice of refusing then refuse and let eBay decide.  

[sweetsongsales]

As I said in my OP, it was shipped priority mail express with a required signature. Someone - a name that does not match the name of the buyer - signed for it at the reshipping company address.

[a_c_green]

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@sweetsongsales wrote:
As I said in my OP, it was shipped priority mail express with a required signature. Someone - a name that does not match the name of the buyer - signed for it at the reshipping company address.

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It doesn't have to match the name of the buyer (and in the case of a reshipper, never would). Signature Confirmation requires only the signature of any adult at the destination address, and your delivery obligation is then complete.

[sweetsongsales]

Yes. Although there is a lot of good advice here, THIS is the solution that seems the most correct and practical based on ebay's rules as I have researched and understand them. The rules could not be clearer: items that are reshipped are no longer eligible for a SNAD claim, or ANY kind of claim, full stop. I understand people are wary because ebay has in the past years started to heavily favor the buyers in these types of situations, but I believe that if the buyer opens an actual claim after I refuse a refund, even if ebay sides in his favor they will likely reverse that decision upon appeal if I call and make a case for the fact that the delivery address is a reshipping address. I think if they look at the buyer's paypal and ebay information they will probably discover that their actual address is in Russia, and coupled with the Yelp and Google reviews of the reshipper claiming fraud and abuse, they will ultimately side in my favor.

I'm simply not willing to voluntarily fork over hundreds of dollars to a scammer. He has sent me numerous messages today reiterating that I sent him books and it's "obvious" that I did because I have listed other books for sale on ebay, which is ludicrous.

I'm honestly wondering if this account was hacked and a foreign buyer went in and changed up the shipping info and has used a stolen account for this entire transaction.

So I agree with fab_finds4u. I believe that the best course of action is to refuse the refund, let the buyer file a claim, and then contact ebay with everything I have discovered and hope for the best outcome. If the worst case scenario is that they ultimately do not find in my favor, I will accept the one negative strike against my account and lose the money anyway, and honestly in that case I don't want to sell on ebay anymore anyway because I don't want to be part of a system where I can be so obviously scammed out of half a thousand dollars.

Thanks to everyone for their input and suggestions.

[jocli76]

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@sweetsongsales wrote:
Because they obviously have instructions for the reshipping company to open the packages they receive, and report the contents back to them. Yes. I am 100% certain it is a reshipping company. I googled the address and it came up as such. There are negative yelp reviews from both ebay AND Amazon sellers complaining that they have been scammed by international buyers using the company/address in question.

The company is called TAC International and they are based in Miami, Florida. Not to be confused with other companies of the same or similar name in other places.

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"Because they obviously have instructions for the reshipping company to open the packages they receive, and report the contents back to them."

All in 10 minutes? Conjecture.

"There are negative yelp reviews from both ebay AND Amazon sellers complaining that they have been scammed by international buyers using the company/address in question."

All reshippers have scam complaints, some of their customers are scammers. It's meaningless, like saying ebay is a scammer because scammers use ebay.

Good luck on the outcome here.

[peter-green]

this is not going to end well if you are thinking of fighting it

buyers are allowed to open a return the minute they have paid,while it is enroute ,on its way or whatever,this is OKed by ebay,

if they have filed a not as described its basically given more attention I think.

it is not good to sight policy with a CSR who does net fell like grasping the situation

the package is still in the USA,ebay is not in the business of being a super sleuth and comparing DC time stamps with the ebay message timing to catch a bad guy who told you immediately you had rooked him.

we can understand your problem but a CSR may not want to go with the flow when you try to tell them what you think happened and want to fight it,

ebay CSR does not make policy,they will try to interpret the problem for you but are basically obligated to cover the buyer at all times

what that means is you get the right to a return and if it does not go well you have deal with it later

[ga-8370]

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@sweetsongsales wrote:
The rules could not be clearer: items that are reshipped are no longer eligible for a SNAD claim, or ANY kind of claim, full stop.

I believe that if the buyer opens an actual claim

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Your buyer HAS ALREADY OPENED AN ACTUAL CLAIM. The eBay Resolution Center does not show* return claims, which many of us do not know when we gave you that advice to check if there's actually a claim at the resolution center. Instead, look on your Sold items page for that open claim.

You need to contact eBay soon, before your buyer escalates the claim. eBay will not do the research on Google or Yelp, so you have to insist that that is a reshipper, which invalidates the claim. And to make that happen, you might have to rub their nose in their own policy while you're on the line, unfortunately.

*return claims only show up in the resolution center after escalation, when it's too late

[sweetsongsales]

Well. Currently the buyer generated a USPS shipping label on the 7th, but has yet to actually turn anything over to the postal service, so the tracking just shows a label having been generated. Unless I'm misunderstanding, a return has to arrive to me within 7 days of the return being started (which was on the 7th) or I can ask eBay to close it in my favor.

But I also spoke to an eBay agent who said that even if they do ship me something back, they acknowledge that they are not allowed to file a claim. I was told to let the return process play out and if nothing is returned to me, they will side in my favor; but even if they do ship me back a box full of books, I should call back upon receiving that and that notes have been made on the claim indicating it should still be closed in my favor because of the reshipping situation.

So I guess we'll see. In the meantime it really sucks having my paypal account be in the negative.

[myangelandmyprincess]

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@sweetsongsales wrote:
Well. Currently the buyer generated a USPS shipping label on the 7th, but has yet to actually turn anything over to the postal service, so the tracking just shows a label having been generated. Unless I'm misunderstanding, a return has to arrive to me within 7 days of the return being started (which was on the 7th) or I can ask eBay to close it in my favor.

But I also spoke to an eBay agent who said that even if they do ship me something back, they acknowledge that they are not allowed to file a claim. I was told to let the return process play out and if nothing is returned to me, they will side in my favor; but even if they do ship me back a box full of books, I should call back upon receiving that and that notes have been made on the claim indicating it should still be closed in my favor because of the reshipping situation.

So I guess we'll see. In the meantime it really sucks having my paypal account be in the negative.

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They have five business days from when they are issued a label to return.  There is no seven data. 

[sweetsongsales]

Ok. Thank you for the correction. I guess in my mind I thought 7 ie: 5 including 2 weekend days.

Does that mean the item must be SHIPPED within 5 business days, or it must ARRIVE back to me within 5 business days?

[coco9619]

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@sweetsongsales wrote:
Does that mean the item must be SHIPPED within 5 business days, or it must ARRIVE back to me within 5 business days?

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Yes, the return @sweetsongsales must be SHIPPED (i.e. tracking shows Acceptance, In Transit, etc.) within 5 business days of the seller clicking Accept the return and issuing a return label, regardless the buyer uses your label or their own label.

If not scanned, the day after 5 business days, the seller can call eBay to close the return, no defect, and block feedback/remove if already left.

[mvls1]

"if they have filed a not as described its basically given more attention I think.

it is not good to sight policy with a CSR who does net fell like grasping the situation

the package is still in the USA,ebay is not in the business of being a super sleuth and comparing DC time stamps with the ebay message timing to catch a bad guy who told you immediately you had rooked him."

Actually, this is similar to what a buyer tried on me. CS was very willing to review both the ebay messages, including the time stamps, and compare it to the actual tracking time stamps. In my case, delivery tracking to the buyer showed  2 hours AFTER the buyer filed his not as described. In other words, the buyer could not have known anything about the item condition at the time of filing their NAD since tracking showed delivery was 2 hours after they filed their NAD. Because the time stamps proved that the buyer was lying, the case was immediately closed in my favor. The buyer then left negative feedback, which was removed when I called CS and referred them to them to the notes in the case resolution.

This may work for the original poster as his sale agreement is with the end buyer and not a third party forwarding company. As such, IF the buyer filed a NAD return request within 10 minutes of the item showing delivery to the forwarding company then the buyer could not possibly have examined the shipment to know if it contained a laptop or books much less if the laptop was as described. The seller should request that CS check the tracking for delivery address/time stamp and compare that to the buyers actual country of residence to show that the buyer could not of had possession of the package prior to filing the NAD. They needs to sight Ebay policy that the sellers  responsibility ends at delivery to the address on file with Ebay/PayPal for the money back guarantee. The seller needs to politely insist that the forwarding company has NO standing in the transaction for the purpose of filing a NAD as they are not the buyer. Remind CS again of the time sequencing and request that the case be closed in the sellers favor. Also, the seller should request an email/message of the resolution in their favor and print a hard copy for their records.

That is my experience and best advice for this seller.

[this*old*attic]

Sure they have standing.

Are you saying that if I went on a long vacation or was a snowbird, my adult daughter couldn’t let me know plates I’d ordered arrived broken?

 I don’t think so.

Moreover, reshippers themselves aren’t ineligible for SNAD, it’s the reshipping to the 2nd destination.

And last, we’ve had many shocked sellers come to board, claiming their closed cases were reversed several days later when returns finally showed delivered.