Finally Got my First "Real" Negative. Buyer Refund Fishing?

[netwizz760]

Maybe 9 or 10 years ago, I got a negative with no notice or even a message...  The feedback indicated what the problem was with 1 out of 3 items, and I refunded the buyer in full and the buyer revised it.  I lost maybe $12.50 on that.

Today I got my second ever negative, and want to share my thoughts and communications (I will not name the buyer)... I ask for advice how to handle this  better in the future.  My conclusion is that I am too verbose.

**

Dec 3: Buyer purchases an HVAC zone-board for $119

Dec 4: I ship it at 9:01 am 9405509205568206249562

Dec 9: <Messages Exchanged>

Buyer: Can you track down this item? It appears to be stuck in shipping.

Me (reply): UPS has been slow... holidays, COVID, blah blah (I just shared the list of excuses to ease tensions)
I have no idea why eBay is estimating faster than USPS. All that said, I actually shipped it at 9:01 am first thing when my Post Office opened - within 12 hours of you ordering it... It has been three (3) business days, and I believe it takes at least seven days before I can open a missing mail search with USPS.

* I sent that message to attempt to appease and placate the buyer and have him wait a while for a hopeful smooth transaction*

Buyer (replying again same day to put pressure on me): Our client is waiting with a broken HVAC system. 

*Side Note/thought:  Any half-way decent HVAC tech could bypass a zone-board to get a client heat!*

Me (replying again): I totally understand the situation and apologize. I wish USPS would do their job. You can search for USPS delays, and everyone is reporting issues. 😞

I checked through some items I sent out, and they aren’t moving either. Selling is a hobby if mine, but I always ship next-day. I now cancelled everything for sale that cannot go UPS or FedEx.

If you wait, you will eventually get it, and $120+ tax is an awesome price. I know that because I paid more for it, lol. Maybe you still want it to have an extra on the truck?

The only other thing I can think of is a package intercept to try and get it back, get you your money back, and have you buy it from a Local Supply house or make absolute certain a seller uses FedEx or UPS. I wish I had better news or had known to send it FedEx or UPS.

You are welcome to file an Item Not Received, and I will get you your refund quick without the need for escalation.

*At this point I felt like the buyer was already fishing for a refund only five days in on a $119 item.  My thoughts here were to offer real solutions but also to politely indicate the buyer will not receive both the item AND a refund. *

Dec 12: <Movement> Processed through another sort facility

Dec 16: <Messages Exchanged>
Buyer: Unfortunately, I think this has been lost in shipping. We have received many packages ordered much later and this has reported the same location miles away from our office for days.

Me (replying): It’s not lost but crazy USPS is taking so long on two-day shipping. USPS is lying to people about the delay telling people they will get items shipped by December 21st by Christmas...

Here is a picture of your item with a 2-Day label. It got stuck 8 days in Columbia, SC and has been in Cleveland 4 days. My guess is it won’t be stuck more than 4 more days or 8 days total in Cleveland. I found some YouTube videos and apparently Trucks are waiting 15+ hours for their freight from USPS because they are not sorting mail.

blah blah some pictures from Reddit.

Sorry. If I had known this was going to happen before shipping. I would have sent it FedEx or UPS. I already ended all items that can only go via USPS. Not doing any more business with the Post Office this year.

*I do not blame the buyer for being annoyed with USPS.  I was getting heartburn over this buyer and USPS at this point, too.  I DO understand the frustration of waiting*

Me (Replying again to stall for time): Good Evening:

I filed a missing mail report with the USPS. Sometimes items sent slow Media Mail go faster than Priority-Mail. The Post Office suddenly stopped caring about mail-class and First-In-First-Out.

Right at the time I sent this out, I sent another, smaller item a lower, first-class 3-5 day service, that tracking was 9400109205568207117829. In fact, it did not even get a scan for eight (8) days then suddenly it got a scan at the buyer's Post Office and was delivered.

I wish USPS and eBay would be honest with buyers and sellers how long it will take.

I want to let you know you are 100% protected with eBay in that if it does not show up, you WILL get your money back. Buyer's have 30 days to open a case though it is not clear if that is from when ordered or the estimated delivery. You ordered December 3rd, so eBay has you protected at least through January 2nd though I would never expect you to wait this long to open a case. I really think you will get the item in Ohio now in the next 3 to 5 days.

Dec 18: <Messages Exchanged>

Buyer: Do have another one you can send out?

Me (Replying): 

I do not have another one. It will almost certainly make it several days before Christmas but is in USPS purgatory. It was stuck 7 days in Columbia, South Carolina and has been in Cleveland, Ohio stuck for 6 days. I am hopeful within a couple of days it will be delivered if it gets stuck in for the same length of time in Cleveland. USPS literally decided to be the Grinch and took storing mail in a closet to new levels in that now they filled an entire Warehouse.

blah blah included links to some news articles about USPS Cleveland delays with trucks waiting.

Dec 20: Delivered

Dec 20: <Message Sent by Me>

They finally delivered your zone-board... been watching everyday, and I sincerely apologize for the delay.

Thank you again

* I am relieved and hope to never hear from this buyer again though I am convinced the buyer was fishing for a refund*

Dec 28: < Messages Exchanged>  

*Oh, snap. Now it looks like I am dealing with messages that might proceed with a NAD instead of INR*

Buyer: We finally received this item. Unfortunately, it is not new as advertised. It had clearly been opened and used. We tried it anyway to get our client some heat and it immediately over heated the HVAC transformer. It apparently has a short somewhere on the board. We contacted the manufacture and they confirmed it was set up correctly. They also confirmed that this board hasn't been made since 2006. We had to purchase an actual new replacement from them and a new transformer. We also lost 4 hours of field time, not counting all the shipping delays and resourcing.

*Figured... THIS buyer would be the one to message me.  My thoughts I opened it and took pictures of it and was clear in the listing new, open-box "opened to take pictures," but it has NEVER been used despite what the buyer says; do not know nor did I list the specific manufacture date on the board, but they are still made... and new/old stock is a thing anyway such as an unopened Beatles record... anyway I sent exactly what I posted pictures of and described. Not saying this precludes problems as I never tested it.*

Me (replying): I bought it in a lot, so it should have been new. How would you like me to handle it?

* I think I should never have left it open ended, but I was really just wanting the buyer to tell me he wanted to return it.  I should have just apologized and said open a return case you are covered...*

Buyer (replying): It's worthless to us. We need a full refund. I wish you could also pay for all the lost time as well. Very frustrating.

*Buyer is a bit snappy.  I didn't manufacturer nor warranty the item.  Buyer has been putting pressure on me for the beginning and here it is a refund request.  Makes sense*

*At this point, I wanted to test the buyer and see if he would open a NAD case indicating he is willing to return it because if the buyer opens a case, it will be enough to indicate to me the buyer is not refund fishing.  What I did NOT tell the buyer is that I was going to do a full refund to resolve the case.  I was only making the buyer think he would have to return it to weed out a possible scam.*

Me (replying): Okay. Full refund it is then. I offer free returns, so it won’t cost you a penny.

Buyer (replying): You can have it back, but it is worthless and should not be sold to another unsuspecting person. Per the manufacturer, it is not repairable. This would be just more wasted time for both of us.

*Again it is becoming even more clear the buyer wants the item and a refund... It appears the buyer is refund fishing!  For all I know the buyer probably cannot return it being it is probably working just fine wherever the buyer installed it.*

Me (replying):  I would not sell it again to anybody else. I would rather not hear about a problem from two buyers. It is just procedure to ask for it back. If you open a case I will get it started.

Buyer (replying):  <Sends me proof of buying another zone board>

*Thinks to myself.  What is the point of this?  Any HVAC company is going to buy dozens of zone boards in any given season.  If this were a jacket you had a problem with did not want to return and sent a receipt proving you bought another jacket... would that mean anything other than you like many other similar people own more than one jacket?*

Me (Replying):  I appreciate you sending the proof of buying a replacement board. You can make returns for any reason or no reason at all; I even pay the return shipping shipping. Just like any store merchandise must be returned.

You will then receive a full refund. I will not resell it.

*Maybe I said too much, and I am NOT trying to **bleep** the buyer off.  I am just probing the buyer to open a case because if it is a legitimate problem, wouldn't you open a case on a $119 item you received that wouldn't work?  If I were to send this message again, I would not even make mention to seeing the proof, nor would I make mention that I would not resell it. *

Buyer (replies): Still waste our time.

<Buyer Leaves Negative Feedback>

Me (replies):  I see the negative and still want to take care of you. If you open a case, I can proceed with the return and getting you a refund.

***

Buyer's Feedback Left for others is 100% Negative this year!

Buyer's Feedback Left for others is 70% Negative over last 10 transactions with feedback left!

I am NOT mentioning the buyer's name only sharing public information...  Can I get some advice?

I honestly do NOT know  if the buyer is telling the truth or not.  I do not blame the buyer for being frustrated for waiting a long time for the item, but I feel the buyer is refund fishing then throwing a tantrum I will not give away the item for free.

There is still NO case opened by the buyer!  Why the resistance to send back a $119 item if it doesn't work when it cost nothing to send it back?  For the record, this buyer used to be a seller and has over 100 feedbacks for sales, so this buyer knows exactly how easy it is to slap a label on something!

**

Do I have a chance of eBay removing this negative?

What advice can you give me regarding this transaction, what I did right, what I could have done better, how to prevent the issues I had from possibly reoccurring in the future.

[duncanvr]

I don't see where in your listing it actually says NEW and the feedback states about it being used and not new. You could try several ebay reps and argue that point that you never claimed it actually was NEW in the listing. I would also block this buyer and point out to ebay rep about the negatives that this buyer has been leaving on every seller. And just hope that one of the reps agrees to remove the neg for the above two reasons. Try one rep if no luck try a couple more times. Cease communications with the buyer. They want a refund without returning anything by the sound of it so the could be trying to scam you.  You could use that as defense to when talking to ebay rep say the buyer wants a refund without returning the item. In my view the item worked they could also try and return their original faulty board. And don't use USPS November or December only couriers. 

[netwizz760]

It was listed as

https://www.ebay.com/itm/274577577822

new - open box

“Opened box to take pictures”

It is simply not true that it was ever used.  I think if it doesn't work the buyer is just making baseless assumptions, but I never sold a used item as new.

Does that change anything?

My guess is the original board is not even the same manufacturer.  They are interchangeable, but the buyer should be willing to send a non-working board back instead of me just blindly refund.

[fashunu4eeuh]

Hi, yes, you gave way too much information. A buyer doesn't need to know things like you are a hobby seller, or hear explanations of your choices. I would have only sent something along the lines of this:

“Dear Buyer,

We regret the unprecedented shipping delays due to the pandemic. After investigation with our Postmaster, as of now, your item is in xxxx.

Please be assured we are following your package’s transit most carefully. Thank you for your continued patience. Yours, Seller”

And then when they received it and handed you the long story of their inconvenience and costs, all that needed to be said is the following:

“Dear Buyer, 

We regret you are unhappy with your item. Please return it at our expense for a full refund. Sincerely, Seller”

And then keep repeating it as necessary. No negotiations or all that back-and-forth is necessary. Since they were a seller, they likely know well they can open a case for Item Not Received and/or how to get a refund.  Although i appreciated how you kept your cool and did your best to assist. Sometimes it is a tough call when dealing with an unhappy or demanding customer. 

If eBay won’t remove the the neg, come back for advice on how to respond to the feedback. A good response to a unfavorable  feedback can utterly disarm its negative impact. Good luck to you!

[netwizz760]

How would you reach out to eBay, and what would you say in my shoes?  Just wondering.

Thanks.

[lightlily_arts]

You don't contact eBay as that's a mistake.  Based on history this buyer is adept at working the system.   If the buyer is really unhappy they just need to return the item for a refund.   Just accept the return if they open a case and have eBay issue a return shipping label.  You refund when the original  item is returned.   If they don't return you don't pay for the label or refund.  They already gave you a negative.  No further dialog with this buyer  is necessary and ends the possibility that they are trying to keep the item and get your money.  Just end their story. 

Had a buyer last week make false complaint over an item that I knew was in excellent condition fishing for a partial.  I  simply apologized for not noticing  the supposed defect, and advised them to return for refund which they declined.  Their lost time is not your problem.  Ignore the violin song.

[penguins_dont_fly]

@netwizz760 

Forget everything else ...

1) You offer FREE RETURNS

2) The buyer "demanded something not included in the listing" (reimbursement for time and part)

3) The buyer refused to open a return

The "demanded" part is the policy that makes the feedback removable ... the other 2 are icing.

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/selling-policies/seller-protection-policy?id=4345#section2 

A buyer demanded something not offered in the original listing

You never have to agree to any changes to the terms in your listing (e.g., adding additional items or discounts). If a buyer demands a change to what you originally offered, you can choose to either cancel the order, or you can complete the transaction under the original terms. We will remove feedback and canceled transaction defects when we can see the buyer's demands in eBay messages.

Make sure to report the buyer
https://spd.ebay.com/RBASellerHub

You may want to contact eBay and have them actually look at the buyers Feedback Left for Others

[dentalsales4u]

I would definitely report the buyer.

You offer free returns, there was no reason the buyer couldn't return for a refund.

If nothing else, it puts the buyer on eBays radar. More sellers need to do this when they are dealing with buyers like this.

I would also contact eBay. The worst that could happen is not getting the negative removed, but at least they can see what kind of feedback they have left for other sellers. 

[ceyvov_0]

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@netwizz760 wrote:

My conclusion is that I am too verbose.

---

It is possible, that could be.

[monster-deals]

That many negatives they are not telling the truth.

If this person actually worked for an HVAC company and they routinely cost the company money with buying ebay parts that never worked they would have been fired a long time ago.

There is nothing you can do to avoid buyers like that forever.

[18704d]

"Buyer (replies): Still waste our time.

<Buyer Leaves Negative Feedback>"

-----------

To many sellers, refusal to return and neg fb is considered the end of the transaction.

So fishing for refund, would be a moot issue.

Lynn

[netwizz760]

Well, I might be the sucker.   Hope I did not break any eBay rules in my interaction, but it was a learning experience for me.   The buyer reached out and sent some picture where the buyer had some sawdust on the item that I do not remember being there and told me it was used before.   It wasn’t in my listing pictures like that, but I just responded accepting what the buyer said because the item was NOT installed/working someplace, so it gives credit that the buyer may have encountered a legitimate issue.

None the less I apologized to the buyer and refunded in full this morning without the buyer opening a case nor returning.  $119 sent!

Then as a gesture of Goodwill, I then offered to pay for the alleged burnt out transformer knowing they are fairly cheap, and it would irritate me if I bought something that burnt out a transformer.   The buyer said it was $22.50, which sounds right, so I PayPalled the buyer $22.50 for that.

Then thr buyer was clear that the zone board he bought was $290 where the one I sent him was $119, so $170 more that he was out a lot of money because of me.   I did NOT manufacture the part, but it is clear eBay wants us to make buyers happy.   I wrote him using Listen, Apologize, Satisfy, Thank....   I apologized for the inconvenience again, and politely offered to make it right within reason.

I explained, I am willing to meet you half-way with the difference of $290 - $119 =$171/2, so I will offer you $88.50 more.   I know your time is valuable and that this transaction has not been pleasant for you either...   I want you satisfied, and I would really like it win-win for both of us or there is no point in being a seller.

I explained I am NOT after a glowing review but revised feedback is a thing...   If you would like a gentlemans’ agreement,  where I do NOT tell you what to say, I think that would be okay.   You can say something truthful like, “positive: bad transaction quick communication.”

He responded that the offer is reasonable and acceptable....   Did not say he accepts, so I wrote him back asking, does that means you accept?”

Buyer:  Yes

I paid him off $88.50 more on top of $22.50 = $111 total

Sent the revised feedback request and held my breath...

Revised Feedback:

NEUTRAL: Seller tried to resolve

So, a shipping an item in less than 24 hours, beating yourself up dealing with messages, refunding in full wirhout getting a return, and sending an additional $111 on top of $119 refund is apparently NEUTRAL.

Thankfully, money is not tight right now.   I have been exceptionally fortunate eBay is not my only source of income, but what could I have done better?

This wasn't really the agreement, but how do neutrals impact me?   I guess it is better than a negative. 😂

At any rate, I won’t make that mistake again.   Honestly one negative in a mix of a couple hundred positive and about 98% is not likely to be a turnoff to buyers.

In the future my communication will be short and sweet...  

[creativecrisis]

Neutrals have no effect on your account, OP, and I think you went way above and beyond for this transaction. Good for you that you take customer service seriously. That said, this buyer could have got his money back by simply returning the item. And one negative in a sea of positive feedback isn't going to scare other buyers away.

Best wishes, and please look out for yourself.

[monster-deals]

---

@netwizz760 wrote:

Well, I might be the sucker.  

---

Yep, you got rolled.

Should have stuck with "return for refund".

Now they will do it to another seller.

[netwizz760]

In everything in life, we learn from our experiences even more perhaps from the bad experiences.  Making a mistake is one thing, but if I do not make the same mistake again, then this $111 lesson was fairly cheap compared to some other life lessons.

Here are my take always:

1.  I am going to be brief and succinct and too the point NEVER talking disparagingly to about the USPS, eBay transit estimates etc.  I am not clairvoyant and will NOT be predicting when packages will arrive (even though I was right on the dot this time).

2.  ALL my listings will ALWAYS have Standard Shipping and NOT commit to a particular carrier such as USPS First Class, UPS, FedEx, etc.  It will allow me to use the carrier I want!  If an item happens to be cheaper going Priority Mail (than UPS/FedEX) and cannot go First-Class... then that is a Free UPGRADE to Expedited shipping!

2b.  Starting just before Thanksgiving next year, I am going to stop using USPS and yank any listings for items that cannot be profitable going UPS/FedEx.

3.  If a buyer contacts me about an item arriving late, and it is only a day or two late.  *Red Flags* I will reply applying Listen, Apologize, Satisfy, Thank.  I will simply  write the buyer:  "I am sorry your item is running late.  I shipped it early the next morning within 12 hours in person and it went Priority-Mail.   USPS on their main webpage just today released a message about COVID-19 and Holiday Shipping.  For the most up-to-date tracking information, please visit the USPS website. I hope it gets to you soon and will keep monitoring the progress.  Thank you."

*What I copy/paste will be verbatim word-for-word what the shipper's PR folks post and probably only a snippet.  I will NOT estimate how much longer it will will take nor empathies with the buyer."

3a.  If the buyer contact me a second time about the same item asking what I am going to do or about sending a replacement or insists it is lost, I am going to assume it is refund fishing AND I am going to make it easy for the buyer to go fishing.  I am NOT going to mention Package Intercept nor say anything that would indicate to the buyer he or she will not get a refund and the item because I would rather not mention I know about Package Intercept nor educate the buyer on its existence if the buyer does not know already.  Instead, I will write:

"I am sorry you have still not received your item.  Please rest assured, buyers are always 100% protected when buying on the eBay platform.  You are welcome to open an Item Not Received case, and I will resolve it with a full refund without the need for escalation to eBay.  Thank you"

*When the buyer opens a case, I will do a package intercept and never mention it to the buyer!  I will refund the buyer resoling the case.*

At this point, what can the buyer possibly do?:

1.  Message me about not getting the item after getting a full refund?  Okay.  I will simply NOT reply.

2.  If I get bad feedback, I will ask eBay to resolve it with the simple facts:  I shipped on-time, due to delay the buyer opened a case and I fully refunded without escalation, buyer is mad he or she did not get a free item, too.  <=  This will be a slam dunk win; I think.  It is MUCH more desirable to get a INR than a NAD.  Not only that, the Post Office WILL eventually return the item to me unopened.

3b.  If the first time a buyer contacts me is after a LONG wait i.e. 14 days vs 4 days, then it is natural human behavior not someone gaming the system.  I will simply reply:

"I am sorry your item has not arrived.  I opened a Missing Mail report (please see attached).  USPS statement on their website says, "blah COVID blah holidays."  I hope you get your item soon, but please rest assured buyers are 100% protected on the eBay platform.  If your item does not arrive soon, please open an Item Not Received Case to allow me to refund you.  Thank you"

*This particular buyer type who is NOT a PITA and has left others positive feedback, if the item is inexpensive, I will refund with a note to keep the item if and when it arrives.  My general rule of thumb for deciding if I package intercept is would I pay at least $15 to buy  the item at a garage sale if I could sell it again at the same price?"

Problems after Delivery:

4.  If the buyer reports a problem after delivery, I will always Listen, Apologize, Satisfy, Thank.  It can be a simple reply like, "I am sorry blah is not working for you.  I offer free-returns regardless of which selection the buyer chooses for any return, so my buyers never pay return shipping; instead, you will be provided a pre-paid label to facilitate the process for an easy return.  Please open a return case, and I will get this going immediately for you."

4a.  If this is an inexpensive item.  "I am sorry blah is not working for you.  While I offer free-returns regardless of which selection the buyer chooses for any return, so my buyers never pay return shipping, if you would like to send me a picture instead, I can refund without you needing to send the item back."

5.  I am NOT working with any buyers to revise any negatives unless it is an inexpensive item like $15 and the buyer has issued a sea of positive feedback for others.  Instead, I will take the advice from this forum, "A good response to a unfavorable feedback can utterly disarm its negative impact."  In a sea of positive feedbacks one negative really will not matter anyway especially when buyers know they are protected even if they do have a bad experience.

Any other suggestions or improvements?