Extended Time Auctions. Good or Bad For eBay? Would you use them or bid on them?

[*help_no_brakes*]

I have accepted the challenge to post this topic.

It was suggested that a Fire Truck be on standby.

I live in a remote location with a volunteer Fire Service...however here we are...

[godzilla_goose]

ke4fpb,

You say people treat Trinton with "kid gloves" but I will tell you right now, that back in 2005, when eBay had "pinks", the then equivalent of today's "blues", policy_steve had the misfortune of posting his "content" on the Old Bidding Board and, as comrade_raptor said, the Biddies "jumped him" and the guy never returned.

As far as I am concerned, NO "kid gloves" for you.

When you are trying to compare a "real" auction to an eBay [fixed ending time] auction, an INTELLIGENT bidder knows that because in an eBay fixed ending time auction, that bidder MUST submit his/her BEST bid in BEFORE the clock runs out. Even eBay ITSELF prompts you for your MAXIMUM bid when you enter your Proxy Bid. It does NOT surprise me one IOTA that the bidders who FAIL to submit a MAXIMUM bid as their Proxy Bid as eBay ITSELF prompts complain the LOUDEST when they LOSE and proclaim "I would have bid more given more time. . .".

Furthermore, in a "real" auction, IF the auctioneer accepts MAILED bids, that bidder ALSO has to submit his/her MAXIMUM bid on his/her Bid Sheet to the auctioneer to enter into the auction books BEFORE the bidding is open to Floor Bidders in a "real" auction and the auctioneer sets the opening bid to the Floor Bidders depending on what MAILED bids that are received AND accepted/booked in. As far as I am concerned, the opening bid the auctioneer starts with may already be "too high" for the Floor Bidders who are NOT privy to the MAXIMUM bids of the MAILED bids and the item is sold to the winning bidder who MAILED in his/her Bid Sheet when offered to the Floor Bidders and NO one on the floor bids.

For example, interests parties can request auction catalogues from the auctioneer and submit their signed and dated Bid Sheet to the auctioneer. The auctioneer sets the opening bid dependent on what MAILED bid(s) are received. I review the auction catalogue and I am interested in Lot #1967 and I submit my MAXIMUM BID of $2,500 on my Bid Sheet and e-mail/fax it to the auctioneer THREE TIME ZONES away. Unbeknownst to me, other parties are also interested in Lot #1967 and they have submitted their MAXIMUM BIDS of $850, $1,500, and $1,500 respectively on their Bid Sheets and send them to the auctioneer. Per the Auction House rules, tied amounts go to the bidder of that amount WHO FIRST MAILED in their Bid Sheet and the auctioneer opens the bidding to the Floor Bidders at ONE bid increment above the SECOND highest MAILED bid if there is MORE than one MAILED bid. So, assume the bid increment is $100 when the bid reaches $1000.

In my example above, based on the FOUR MAILED bids received, only THREE are booked in as the second $1,500 bid is NOT accepted. So, the auctioneer opens the bidding at $1,600 to the Floor Bidders who are now bidding against my MAILED bid. IF there are NO Floor Bidders willing to bid $1600, then I win at $1,600 because the opening bid requested from the Floor bidders is already "too high". If there are Floor bidders willing to bid $1600, they'll raise their paddle and the auctioneer will then say "I already have a MAILED bid of $1,600. Do I have a bid of $1,700 from the floor"? Someone bids $1,700. Auctioneer: I already have a MAILED bid of $1,700. Do I have a bid of $1,800 from the floor? Someone bids 1,800. Auctioneer: I already have a MAILED bid of $1,800. Do I have a bid of $1,900 from the floor? Someone else bids $1,900. Auctioneer: I already have a MAILED bid of $1,900. Do I have a bid of $2,000 from the floor? NO more floor bidders raise their paddles. I win LOT #1967 with a hammer price of $2,000 as my MAXIMUM bid of $2,500 that I mailed in was more than enough to win.

There is NO fixed ending time in this "real" auction BUT there is still the concept of a MAXIMUM bid that is (carefully) considered by Absentee/MAIL bidders when they submit their Bid Sheets to the auctioneer.

The eBay Live auctions that are run in conjunction with the Auction House in which I have participated online in real-time, in-person at the Floor, and Absentee via MAILED bids have lasted NO MORE than 40 SECONDS (for active bidding) per lot never mind minutes or seven DAYS.

To me, ONLY LOWBALLING bidders want another shot at bidding on eBay and that's why they FAIL when they LOSE and then COMPLAIN and want eBay to have EXTENDED auctions to cater to their wants.

To me, some eBay sellers would encourage eBay to have extended auctions and say this will bring higher bids (to eBay) and, to me, other disreputable eBay sellers would, given the chance, use extended auctions to have unlimited opportunities to manipulate the bidding process to the detriment of the legitimate bidders.

You wrote in message #208 of your thread on the Bidding Discussion Board:

Shilling has been a big talking point since years before eBay's IPO. Even when it was commonplace for "buddies" to bid on each other's items, even before eBay spent tons of money on very sophisiticated shill detecting algorithms.. people were aware of it, and it was still pretty uncommon.

http://community.ebay.com/t5/Bidding-Buying/Do-you-bid-at-the-last-second-Why/td-p/27274515/page/11

If eBay "spent tons of money on very sophisiticated [sic] shill detecting algorithms", then I have absolutely NO FAITH WHATSOEVER in eBay detecting shilling. I only need to point back to January, 2004, when eBay featured its PowerSeller of the Month and Griff was going to interview him on his radio show. Long time eBay users with good memories will remember what an EMBARRASSMENT that turned out to be when the PowerSeller of the Month was a PROVEN SHILLER and Griff quickly cut off questions on his radio show and there NO longer has been any more PowerSeller of the Month featured ever since.

As I write this post, I offer to interested readers (ESPECIALLY lurkers/non-posters) and any person posting in this thread EXCLUDING you ke4fpb, via eBay private messages FIVE eBay Item numbers and URLs to the Bid History pages of a blatantly SHILLED auctions that this so called eBay "sophisticated shill detection algorithms" failed to recognize. I will even FULLY explain to the interest parties EXACTLY WHY they are SHILLED auctions.

I am going to leave the board to deal with my REAL WORK but I will meet requests for the above offer within 24 HOURS (or less).

I made the offer publicly to Trinton of ONE SHILLED auction in post #205 in your thread but Trinton did NOT acknowledge me for that item number but then again, Trinton's EXACT words in post #177 were: I think that a soft close feature is an amazing idea! I'm going to pass this along to the appropriate teams for consideration. Thanks for sharing

"eBay Shill Detecting Algorithms". <--- WAY TOO FUNNY.

[margarenisa_0]

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@godzilla_goose wrote:

*help_no_brakes*

As a bidder/buyer and being mindful of UNWANTED MAIL to me from Lithium, I will just say, "No, I will not bid on them" and leave it at that.

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The love notes? Lol

I'll say it then- WHAT FRESH HELL IS THIS?

Maybe instead of Trinton suggesting clever ways for eBay to "improve" auctions, he could suggest that eBay FIX THE GLITCHES FIRST.

Just thinking this over- I'm SMH at this foolishness.

I can't 

[d-k_treasures]

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@muttlymob wrote:

Brakes volunteered to do the dirty work and bring it here for MORE feedback- OMGOSH I said Feedback.. SSShhhhhhhhhhh

Actually, you said it twice.

Whatever you do, DO NOT REPEAT IT FOR A THIRD TIME.

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Especially if you turned around 3 times - that would invoke the Phan in a hurry!

[godzilla_goose]

@margarenisa_0

@*help_no_brakes*

@castlemagicmemories

Thank you for the kudos.  Kindly check your personal messages in a few minutes. 

[godzilla_goose]

@pikabo-icu

Thank you for the kudo.  Kindly check your personal messages.

[castlemagicmemories]

Thank YOU for the PM!  

[omgitlightsup]

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@godzilla_goose wrote:

If eBay "spent tons of money on very sophisiticated [sic] shill detecting algorithms", then I have absolutely NO FAITH WHATSOEVER in eBay detecting shilling. I only need to point back to January, 2004, when eBay featured its PowerSeller of the Month and Griff was going to interview him on his radio show. Long time eBay users with good memories will remember what an EMBARRASSMENT that turned out to be when the PowerSeller of the Month was a PROVEN SHILLER and Griff quickly cut off questions on his radio show and there NO longer has been any more PowerSeller of the Month featured ever since.

As I write this post, I offer to interested readers (ESPECIALLY lurkers/non-posters) and any person posting in this thread EXCLUDING you ke4fpb, via eBay private messages FIVE eBay Item numbers and URLs to the Bid History pages of a blatantly SHILLED auctions that this so called eBay "sophisticated shill detection algorithms" failed to recognize. I will even FULLY explain to the interest parties EXACTLY WHY they are SHILLED auctions.

I am going to leave the board to deal with my REAL WORK but I will meet requests for the above offer within 24 HOURS (or less).

I made the offer publicly to Trinton of ONE SHILLED auction in post #205 in your thread but Trinton did NOT acknowledge me for that item number but then again, Trinton's EXACT words in post #177 were: I think that a soft close feature is an amazing idea! I'm going to pass this along to the appropriate teams for consideration. Thanks for sharing

"eBay Shill Detecting Algorithms". <--- WAY TOO FUNNY.

---

I don't work for eBay. But I do know that they've implemented software systems to detect shilling, and like any software, I'm sure it can result in false negatives and false positives.

I am not going to get involved in auction interference and there's nothing I can do to help these auctions you've determined to be tampered with. If you're so concerned about shill bidding, perhaps you should follow eBay's advice and report it:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/seller-shill-bidding.html

If you think you see shill bidding taking place on a listing, report it to us. Be sure to provide the member's user ID and the item number. We thoroughly investigate every report we receive. Often what appears to be shill bidding isn't a violation. If there is evidence of shill bidding, we will take action, which may include listing cancellation or referral to law enforcement. However, our User Privacy Notice prevents us from disclosing the details of our investigation to other members, including the person who reported the issue.

Oh, and sure, I do make a typo once in a while. I know how "sophisticated" is supposed to be spelled. I just don't have the spell checker turned on in my browser because I try to depend on my own abilities (unless it's a resume or something like that). Plus, like shill detection, spell check often makes mistakes and distracts me from what I'm trying to do.

Maybe "kid gloves" was the wrong word. You just seem to YELL a lot. The way you'd talk to a REBELLIOUS TEENAGER or a DISCOURTEOUS TABLE WAITER. Your overuse of EMPHATIC CAPS makes me think of Chris Farley in his Matt Foley sketches. I'm imagine you yelling about how shill bidding will all eventually have us living in a VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER. That's all I meant.

[thatsallfolks]

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@omgitlightsup wrote:Maybe "kid gloves" was the wrong word. You just seem to YELL a lot. The way you'd talk to a REBELLIOUS TEENAGER or a DISCOURTEOUS TABLE WAITER. Your overuse of EMPHATIC CAPS makes me think of Chris Farley in his Matt Foley sketches. I'm imagine you yelling about how shill bidding will all eventually have us living in a VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER. That's all I meant.

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OK, that's funny. I've probably done that a few times too. Now that I have a visual of what it sounds like, maybe I'll cut back.

[godzilla_goose]

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@omgitlightsup wrote:

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@godzilla_goose wrote:

If eBay "spent tons of money on very sophisiticated [sic] shill detecting algorithms", then I have absolutely NO FAITH WHATSOEVER in eBay detecting shilling. I only need to point back to January, 2004, when eBay featured its PowerSeller of the Month and Griff was going to interview him on his radio show. Long time eBay users with good memories will remember what an EMBARRASSMENT that turned out to be when the PowerSeller of the Month was a PROVEN SHILLER and Griff quickly cut off questions on his radio show and there NO longer has been any more PowerSeller of the Month featured ever since.

As I write this post, I offer to interested readers (ESPECIALLY lurkers/non-posters) and any person posting in this thread EXCLUDING you ke4fpb, via eBay private messages FIVE eBay Item numbers and URLs to the Bid History pages of a blatantly SHILLED auctions that this so called eBay "sophisticated shill detection algorithms" failed to recognize. I will even FULLY explain to the interest parties EXACTLY WHY they are SHILLED auctions.

I am going to leave the board to deal with my REAL WORK but I will meet requests for the above offer within 24 HOURS (or less).

I made the offer publicly to Trinton of ONE SHILLED auction in post #205 in your thread but Trinton did NOT acknowledge me for that item number but then again, Trinton's EXACT words in post #177 were: I think that a soft close feature is an amazing idea! I'm going to pass this along to the appropriate teams for consideration. Thanks for sharing

"eBay Shill Detecting Algorithms". <--- WAY TOO FUNNY.

---

I don't work for eBay. But I do know that they've implemented software systems to detect shilling, and like any software, I'm sure it can result in false negatives and false positives.

I am not going to get involved in auction interference and there's nothing I can do to help these auctions you've determined to be tampered with. If you're so concerned about shill bidding, perhaps you should follow eBay's advice and report it:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/seller-shill-bidding.html

If you think you see shill bidding taking place on a listing, report it to us. Be sure to provide the member's user ID and the item number. We thoroughly investigate every report we receive. Often what appears to be shill bidding isn't a violation. If there is evidence of shill bidding, we will take action, which may include listing cancellation or referral to law enforcement. However, our User Privacy Notice prevents us from disclosing the details of our investigation to other members, including the person who reported the issue.

Oh, and sure, I do make a typo once in a while. I know how "sophisticated" is supposed to be spelled. I just don't have the spell checker turned on in my browser because I try to depend on my own abilities (unless it's a resume or something like that). Plus, like shill detection, spell check often makes mistakes and distracts me from what I'm trying to do.

Maybe "kid gloves" was the wrong word. You just seem to YELL a lot. The way you'd talk to a REBELLIOUS TEENAGER or a DISCOURTEOUS TABLE WAITER. Your overuse of EMPHATIC CAPS makes me think of Chris Farley in his Matt Foley sketches. I'm imagine you yelling about how shill bidding will all eventually have us living in a VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER. That's all I meant.

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ke4fpb,

Whether you work for eBay or not doesn't matter to me. Whether you know (for a fact) that [eBay] has implemented software systems to detect shilling does not matter to me. As for a rebuttal to the "false negatives and false positives", how can I put this succinctly . . . the software isn't malfunctioning, it's, how can I put this without getting a "Lithium Love Letter" . . . . um . . . "inadequate".

As for "auction interference", I have made no suggestion whatsoever of the sort.  I've performed MY due diligence on the shilled auctions.  I have already provided my findings to 4 members.

As for that URL to the eBay policy page about reporting shilling to eBay, I used that (back in March, 2017), done my reporting to eBay and as I wrote in your thread, the current eBay reporting mechanism is clicking on the Report Link on the right hand side of the auction listing and selecting from the drop down menu.

If you were to try this yourself, these are the actual steps I encountered with reporting suspected SHIILLED auctions back in March of this year:

Report Category

Select from a list of report categories < Select Listing practices >

Reason for Report

Select from a list of reporting reasons < Select Fraudulent listing activities >

Detailed Reason

Select from a list of detailed reporting reason < Select Seller is using other accounts to inflate item price >

Enter the verification code [This is a 6 digit captcha]

Click the blue Submit report button

NOWHERE is there any means to provide the member's user ID and the item number via this eBay Reporting mechanism as it was elicited in the eBay page you cited in your post. Nevertheless, this is how eBay deals with "Reporting shill bidding".

In 2005, the mechanism was quite different as is was possible to write a detailed report up to 10,000 characters and there were fields to enter the seller's user ID and suspected shill bidding IDs that was sent to eBay Trust and Safety and in return, eBay sent a KMM number as a reference number to acknowledge the receipt of the report. Back then, eBay did not disclose anything about its investigations, but to me, it was clearly evident when I see the shill bidding IDs get NARUed and the SHILLING seller left alone.

Even further back in 2000, when eBay was much smaller than it is today, I've seen SHILLERS get NARUed in real time. That is not happening in the present day eBay, even if you assert eBay has "sophisticated shill detection algorithms" and from my experience, eBay is turning a blind eye to SHILLING even when it is blatant.

The OLD eBay had humans in the Trust & Safety Department dealing with shill bidding. As far as I am aware, eBay is not using humans to investigate shill bidding but is relying on "software" as you claim eBay has spent a ton of money on. Frankly, from what I have seen, it's "inadequate".

[omgitlightsup]

I remember when the way to prevent shilling on eBay was to be honest and fair. And I know they cracked down on it after a while.. and I could swear that for a time, they warned us that if we tried to do it, their high-tech shill-detector algorithm would bust us for it.

I really don't know how sophisticated it is or how well it works because I've never shilled on an auction. I do know that I've sold items to friends of mine and never been busted for it. It seemed for a while in the mid 2000's that eBay was trying to tell us our friends weren't allowed to interact with us here, and they sort of reeled back that attitude.

I believe you if you say it works poorly.. but I still bet you they spent a ton of money on it!

[mrmagoo-22]

 "ke4fpb said"

"I remember when the way to prevent shilling on eBay was to be honest and fair. And I know they cracked down on it after a while.. and I could swear that for a time, they warned us that if we tried to do it, their high-tech shill-detector algorithm would bust us for it.

I really don't know how sophisticated it is or how well it works because I've never shilled on an auction. I do know that I've sold items to friends of mine and never been busted for it. It seemed for a while in the mid 2000's that eBay was trying to tell us our friends weren't allowed to interact with us here, and they sort of reeled back that attitude.

I believe you if you say it works poorly.. but I still bet you they spent a ton of money on it"

This article appeared, with regard to what eBay (along with the Courts) WERE doing to combat the issue of shill biding.

 As far back as 2008ish, I believe eBay said they spent £5m a year on prevention, but I'm of a mind that some bright spark thought why spend ALL that money fighting it, when we can look the other way, and MAKE 10% on the deal...AKA the "Final value fee"

Ebay seller faces £50,000 fine after bidding for his OWN sales to raise prices

By Daily Mail Reporter 
UPDATED: 01:49, 21 April 2010

    

171

View comments

Paul Barrett increased the value of the items he was selling by bidding on them in a practice known as 'shill bidding'

An eBay trader who bid against himself to hike his own prices faces a £50,000 fine after Britain's first prosecution for online auction fixing.

Paul Barrett boosted the value of goods he was selling on one eBay account by placing bids and positive feedback comments from a second account he held under a different name.

Trading standards officers hauled him before magistrates for breaking new laws designed to stop such dodgy dealing.

Barrett, 39, a mini-bus hire firm boss from Stanley, County Durham, pleaded guilty to ten breaches of the Business Protection from Misleading Marketing Regulations 2008 and the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008.

Barrett told the court he did not realise that bidding on his own items - which included a pie and pasty warmer priced at £127 - was a criminal offence.

He said: 'eBay let me open up the second account and I gave all my personal details and home address to do so.

'I realised the price was too low on some things and put the prices up using the second account.

'I've never been in trouble before and would like to apologise."

Each of the ten offences carries a maximum £5,000 fine - which will be set by a Crown Court judge at a later date.

The two laws were brought into force to tackle growing internet fraud after an EU directive to bring UK consumer protection up to European standards.

Trading standards investigators targeted Barrett after a complaint that he advertised and sold a mini-bus on eBay with false low mileage.

The Renault Master bus was advertised as having travelled 55,013 miles - but actually had 132,401 on the clock.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1267410/Ebay-seller-faces-fine-bidding-items-raise-prices.ht... 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

[*help_no_brakes*]

Maaate...click on the three dots on your post & self report to the mods.

Posting personal details like that is a no no on the boards.

[mrmagoo-22]

Yes, I guess the links at the bottom?, and the reference to the Newspaper who ran the story?.

Many thanks matey, seriously.  Sadly this is an example of how this forum falls FLAT on it's face, when we are prevented from highlighting the TRUTH...FACTS, that show it as it is.

TBH, I'm not sure what you think I should report to the Mods?, since I was only helping out with some info in that post, with regard to how much eBay are SAID to have spent (some £6m a year, as it turns out) and then it jogged my memory, and I gotta tell yers, it takes a BL**DY good belt ter do THAT these days) about the Court case. I figured it might be of interest, and worth risking 1 of my 9 lives  

And ter top it off, I was being, well..nice to ke4fpb, a self confessed "people watcher" (withOUT a Helicopter, don't yer know)

Confused?

In the case of a policeman, a different kind of "people watcher" HE was "watching" couples, while they had "fun in the sun" while he was  up? in the sky  

 I suspect he NOW watches his back, in the SHOWERS, since he got 12 months

[emerald40]

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@omgitlightsup wrote:

I remember when the way to prevent shilling on eBay was to be honest and fair. And I know they cracked down on it after a while.. and I could swear that for a time, they warned us that if we tried to do it, their high-tech shill-detector algorithm would bust us for it.

I really don't know how sophisticated it is or how well it works because I've never shilled on an auction. I do know that I've sold items to friends of mine and never been busted for it. It seemed for a while in the mid 2000's that eBay was trying to tell us our friends weren't allowed to interact with us here, and they sort of reeled back that attitude.

I believe you if you say it works poorly.. but I still bet you they spent a ton of money on it!

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From recent experience.  An item I wanted which she had a reserve on.  No one else was bidding.  Woman admitted her boyfriend opened up an account to bid me up to the maximum, so I could purchase it.

[thatsallfolks]

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@emerald40 wrote:

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@omgitlightsup wrote:

I remember when the way to prevent shilling on eBay was to be honest and fair. And I know they cracked down on it after a while.. and I could swear that for a time, they warned us that if we tried to do it, their high-tech shill-detector algorithm would bust us for it.

I really don't know how sophisticated it is or how well it works because I've never shilled on an auction. I do know that I've sold items to friends of mine and never been busted for it. It seemed for a while in the mid 2000's that eBay was trying to tell us our friends weren't allowed to interact with us here, and they sort of reeled back that attitude.

I believe you if you say it works poorly.. but I still bet you they spent a ton of money on it!

---

From recent experience.  An item I wanted which she had a reserve on.  No one else was bidding.  Woman admitted her boyfriend opened up an account to bid me up to the maximum, so I could purchase it.

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So you hadn't reached the reserve, but decided to bid back and forth with this person? Wow, that makes no sense.