Charge Back Fraud

[themartinlady]

Buyers are allowed to initiate a charge back from their bank and not exactly through ebay.

This is a terrible loop hole.

We as sellers have no leverage or recourse. We are at the mercy of the bank who will protect their customer even though that customer is committing fraud.

The banks SUCK.

Ebay better figure out a way to protect the sellers.

I already took a break selling because I worried about the charge backs. Now it happened right off the bat.

I just spoke to ebay and they basically said there is nothing they can do and that this goes on everywhere. Anyone can dispute with any entity. Stores, cable companies, phone companies, etc. It is a terrible loop hole that the thieves exploit and the bank back up and the vendor (whoever it is) gets completely hosed.

Ebay really better figure out a way to protect the sellers or there will not be anyone willing to get sell and get screwed.

[zgnisaer]

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@gurlcat wrote:

Even if that IS on all chargebacks, it doesn't mean the buyer WILL send the item back. 

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And that's exactly what eBay warned Sometimes it's possible that the item can be returned? eBay even used indefinites, twice: Sometimes. It's possible. We're not sure.

No, the buyer is not returning the item. Picture this:

1. First the seller provides the return address.
2. Then eBay hopefully sends the address to PayPal.
3. Maybe PayPal forwards the address to the credit card issuer.
4. And then the card issuer quotes the policy to the buyer
   i.e. The merchant (PayPal) must retrieve the goods at the merchant's own expense.

Two guesses if PayPal the merchant is eager to get the coin back?

[gurlcat]

Exactly. So if it is all but impossible for a buyer to return an item past 30 days, but can still do a chargeback for it, then eBay should handle these rare occurrences by giving courtesy refunds, as in NOT charging the seller for it, because the seller's hands are completely tied obviously, yet they did what they were supposed to at all points along the way.  

[amwldcoin]

Absolutely not!

[lawnmowerpartsstore2]

The Justice Department and the SEC fine Wells Fargo $3 billion for its fake accounts scandal.Apr 25, 2023

Wells Fargo enough said.

After Wells Fargo has screwed so many people that the Government had to fined them im still trying to figure out why anybody does any business with them.....

[isaiah53-57]

@mam98031

WOW! Here we go again..SIGH... How on Gods gray earth do you misconstrue one post after another constantly - You read the same thing everyone else does, but you are ALWAYS somehow the only one to twist it into something its not

When I said:

"Its not the banks fault - Its the people working on your behalf - When we had PayPal as the money processor, I won every single charge back - I didnt have to do a thing - My money processor did all the work(that would be PayPal) - Now? - all I can say is PayPal ain't around no more to handle these things and ebay customer service?...well we dont have to go there do we..."

How do you respond??:

"A chargeback can not under any circumstance be initiated through Ebay. It isn't a "loop hole". It is and has always been the procedure the buyer has to take, going directly to their payment source and filing the claim.  Chargebacks and how they get handle are NOT Ebay's fault."

I said "Its not the banks fault - Its the people working on your behalf", which would be eBay - They fight the chargeback on your behalf, just like PayPal did when they were doing it - I didnt say ANYWHERE or even come close to implying that a chargeback can be "initiated through ebay"!!

The POINT of my post being, was that when PayPal was fighting chargebacks for me, I NEVER lost a case - What I see and hear CONSTANTLY on these boards is, with ebay's help it is virtually impossible to win - So if PayPal didnt have a problem winning those cases for me, why cant ebay do the same?? - and if they CAN"T, then WHO's fault is that?????

[mam98031]

I don't even know what you are trying to argue anymore.

All claims and Chargebacks go through Managed Payments no matter the payment method of the buyer.

[mam98031]

@gurlcat 

I don't mind being referred to in a post, however you need to do it accurately.  You stated " @mam98031 if they just keep it, that's fine and they'll get their money back too! "  I never said it was "fine" for the buyer to get their money and keep the item too.  Not on this thread or any other.  While many CCCs do allow buyers to do just that, I've repeatedly said it isn't fair to the seller but the laws governing the CCCs allow for it and that needs to change.

[mam98031]

I read what you said, my experience with PP was different than yours.  Not sure why that is a problem.  I did end up winning all my Chargebacks while using PP as my money processor, however I did submit evidence to prove my side.  

I never said that a Chargeback can be initiated through Ebay.  But now that Ebay is our money processor, all chargebacks will be in Managed Payments.  We don't deal with anyone but Managed Payments.  But to be clear the buyer ALWAYS initiates a Chargeback with their payment source.

While you may not have seen the threads back with PayPal was our money processor, there were plenty of them regarding fighting a chargeback.

[gurlcat]

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@mam98031 wrote:

@gurlcat 

I don't mind being referred to in a post, however you need to do it accurately.  You stated " @mam98031 if they just keep it, that's fine and they'll get their money back too! "  I never said it was "fine" for the buyer to get their money and keep the item too.  Not on this thread or any other.  While many CCCs do allow buyers to do just that, I've repeatedly said it isn't fair to the seller but the laws governing the CCCs allow for it and that needs to change.

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Apparently it IS fine with eBay, or they would defend sellers against chargebacks like Paypal did for us, just as @isaiah53-57  pointed out.  What kind of defense did Paypal do?  I don't know but the seller certainly wasn't left out in the cold trying to figure out what kind of evidence to use.  My guess is that Paypal made it clear to the bank that if their customer (the buyer) is dissatisfied with the item they could have sent it back, so the bank found in favor of the seller.  The fact that eBay doesn't get involved at all, doesn't enable a return after 30 days (even at the seller's expense) doesn't do a courtesy refund or even cover the insult-added-to-injury $20 fee ...... that's just wrong, the opposite of fine.  

[mam98031]

Doubtful it is "fine" with Ebay either, but I can't speak for them.  But I can tell you as many other posters have, Ebay has NO CONTROL over the outcome of a Chargeback.  

I can't answer for PayPal defending sellers on Chargebacks.  That wasn't my experience.  I still had to submit my evidence when PP was the processor.  The types of Chargebacks make a big difference.  INRs and the buyer not recognizing the charge on their CC are the easiest to win.  INADs not so much.  PP has not more power over a Chargeback than Ebay does.

Paypal charged a $20 fee too if the seller lost a Chargeback.  Its likely more now as they raised most of their fees.

[gurlcat]

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@mam98031 wrote:

Doubtful it is "fine" with Ebay either, but I can't speak for them.  But I can tell you as many other posters have, Ebay has NO CONTROL over the outcome of a Chargeback.  

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They have control over whether they cover the refund amount for sellers that did absolutely nothing wrong.  

[mam98031]

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@gurlcat wrote:

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@mam98031 wrote:

Doubtful it is "fine" with Ebay either, but I can't speak for them.  But I can tell you as many other posters have, Ebay has NO CONTROL over the outcome of a Chargeback.  

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They have control over whether they cover the refund amount for sellers that did absolutely nothing wrong.  

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I get it.  Often times the outcome of a Chargeback is simply unfair to sellers.  I have no problem agreeing with that.  The vast majority of the time that a seller loses a Chargeback is on an INAD.  Those are simply hard to prove for a seller on a Chargeback.  Heck we complain all the time we can't seem to fight them on an Ebay claim.  Not sure why you expect them to cover a Chargeback for something like this when they don't when the claim is filed in Ebay.  

It puts sellers in a very bad spot.  But this is not unique to Ebay either.  Fair, not at all.

[gurlcat]

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@mam98031 wrote:

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@gurlcat wrote:

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@mam98031 wrote:

Doubtful it is "fine" with Ebay either, but I can't speak for them.  But I can tell you as many other posters have, Ebay has NO CONTROL over the outcome of a Chargeback.  

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They have control over whether they cover the refund amount for sellers that did absolutely nothing wrong.  

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I get it.  Often times the outcome of a Chargeback is simply unfair to sellers.  I have no problem agreeing with that.  The vast majority of the time that a seller loses a Chargeback is on an INAD.  Those are simply hard to prove for a seller on a Chargeback.  Heck we complain all the time we can't seem to fight them on an Ebay claim. 

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If by "Ebay claim" you mean an INAD filed within eBay's system, I put up zero fight whatsoever, I offer free returns, zero excuse needed from the buyer,  and I refund as soon as I bring the package in from the mail and inspect it. I don't even care if I suspect the buyer returned out of remorse rather than a legit INAD -just glad to get my item back so I can relist it.  

And I don't expect you to remember this from other threads on the subject where I commented, but I have won every chargeback I've had including INAD ones -well, I either literally won (creditor found in my favor) or lost but eBay paid the refund for me.  But all my chargebacks were filed before 30 days.  I didn't know until reading this thread that it was possible to lose and NOT be covered just because it was more than 30 days.  I can't wrap my head around it, and yes I find it kinda horrifying if I'm honest.  If it was for a higher-dollar item at just the wrong time, it  could be life-altering.   

[rseuqinh]

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@mam98031 wrote:

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@rseuqinh wrote:

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@mam98031 wrote:

Thank you.  That is my understanding as well.

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This is your understanding: 

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@mam98031 wrote:

While some buyers do use PayPal to process a credit card payment they don't process them all.  Ebay can and does process credit card payments without anything to do with PayPal. 

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While some buyers do use PayPal to process a credit card payment they [PayPal] don't process them all. 

Ebay can and does process credit card payments without anything to do with PayPal.

This is how it actually is: 

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devon@ebay wrote:

Hey @mam98031! As a seller in a chargeback scenario you will work with eBay directly and not with the payment processor. We (eBay) will ask and provide any of the information that the payment processor is requesting.   

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As a seller in a chargeback scenario you will work with eBay [the PayPal accountholder] directly and not with [PayPal] the [credit card] payment processor.

We (eBay) will ask and provide any of the information that [PayPal] the [credit card] payment processor is requesting.

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I don't even know what you are trying to argue anymore.

All claims and Chargebacks go through Managed Payments no matter the payment method of the buyer.

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It's all right there.

Your misunderstanding that "Ebay can and does process credit card payments without anything to do with PayPal."

And Devon stating "We (eBay) will ask and provide any of the information that the payment processor is requesting." where Devon clarifies that eBay is never the payment processor.

[mam98031]

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@gurlcat wrote:

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@mam98031 wrote:

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@gurlcat wrote:

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@mam98031 wrote:

Doubtful it is "fine" with Ebay either, but I can't speak for them.  But I can tell you as many other posters have, Ebay has NO CONTROL over the outcome of a Chargeback.  

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They have control over whether they cover the refund amount for sellers that did absolutely nothing wrong.  

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I get it.  Often times the outcome of a Chargeback is simply unfair to sellers.  I have no problem agreeing with that.  The vast majority of the time that a seller loses a Chargeback is on an INAD.  Those are simply hard to prove for a seller on a Chargeback.  Heck we complain all the time we can't seem to fight them on an Ebay claim. 

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If by "Ebay claim" you mean an INAD filed within eBay's system, I put up zero fight whatsoever, I offer free returns, zero excuse needed from the buyer,  and I refund as soon as I bring the package in from the mail and inspect it. I don't even care if I suspect the buyer returned out of remorse rather than a legit INAD -just glad to get my item back so I can relist it.  

And I don't expect you to remember this from other threads on the subject where I commented, but I have won every chargeback I've had including INAD ones -well, I either literally won (creditor found in my favor) or lost but eBay paid the refund for me.  But all my chargebacks were filed before 30 days.  I didn't know until reading this thread that it was possible to lose and NOT be covered just because it was more than 30 days.  I can't wrap my head around it, and yes I find it kinda horrifying if I'm honest.  If it was for a higher-dollar item at just the wrong time, it  could be life-altering.   

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Free returns means the seller pays for return shipping, not that the seller takes returns for any or no reason.  But I understand what you are saying.

I have said the same.  I've won all my Chargebacks too.  Can't say that all mine were filed within 30 days, but that doesn't really matter in the world of Chargebacks.  

I think you have misunderstood something.  You don't lose a Chargeback simply because the buyer filed it more than 30 days after receipt.  You are confusing the Ebay timeframe with Chargebacks and the two are not the same.