Buyer shipped to third party, claims empty box and won case in favor of buyer

[ctx159753]

The story goes like this. I shipped a package and the buyer initiated a return request under "Item not as described" and claimed it was an empty box. I as the seller, confidently, knows it was not empty and was weighted by FedEx. I called up eBay customer service  because the refund request page is clearly automated *****hit.  I was told I'd be in the clear because of my evidence. The package was shipped to a third party company called Mainbox (I won't post the address here but you can find it on google with bad reviews I'd suggest reading and an address in New Castle, DE) that allows buyers to ship to them so that they can ship their package internationally. They even maintain a webpage describing how to buy on eBay. It details how to enter the billing address and shipping address (shipped to their main warehouse) I do not offer international shipping so the buyer clearly used this website because the apartment address I shipped it to was familiar to the one used as an example on the site. Since the buyer claimed it was empty, eBay instructed them to ship it back to me (automated *****hit). How does eBay allow a buyer to claim the package was empty and then request them to ship an empty package to me?

Either way I was told to wait 3 days because it was too early to ask Ebay to step in. They'll save all the information I told them. I called 3 days later and I was met with a robot pretending to be a person. This time I was asked to submit and upload images of my evidence. I uploaded the FedEx weight and tracking, images of my box, receipt of my purchase, and information and screenshots of the webpage the buyer used. Today I just lost the case (in favor of buyer) but won the appeal (all I did was reiterate that the shipping address was a forwarding address).

It was initially decided in favor of the buyer because "The buyer provided documentation from law enforcement showing they received an empty box." I don't know what this means because I don't get to see that information but I'm curious what they did.

Here is the link to the website https://mainbox.com/en/ebay

I think my experience should be an example that shows the risks and faults of selling on eBay. They are as follows:

1: If you choose eBay payouts they no longer show the billing address in addition to the shipping address.

I used to get both information with PayPal.

2: Buyers are allowed to bypass no returns by claiming item is not as described (Good for buyer, bad for seller, especially if seller did nothing wrong).

3: Claim empty packages and win in favor of them.

[bigdeals.etc]

Yea pretty much. As I was reading I was going to tell you that buyers forfeit protection when they use a third party freight forwarder. But I see you already told eBay that on the appeal. Just know that you could also do it when the claim was original filed. All other details are irrelevant once you tell eBay that. Good job protecting yourself.

[forward-motion]

So far I have no fallen victim to the empty box. I did however have a potential item that I thought could happen to. It was an expensive item and the buyer was a new buyer with 0 feedback. So I was concerned. After shipping the item I messaged the buyer letting them know the item was on the way and thanked them for the purchase. I also let them know I dropped the item at the fedex drop off here is the tracking number, weight and size was documented and verified by fedex. I don't know if this would help or not, but I thought it could detour someone from claiming empty box.   

[dbfolks166mt]

     Sorry this happened to you but if you sell here long enough you will eventually be the victim of a scam of some type and eBay does not have you back. Cases like your seem to get posted here more often than they should. With regards to "no returns" not meaning "no refunds" it has been this way on eBay for quite awhile because of the eBay buyer MBG. I am not sure what you shipped or how you shipped it but it is possible the package was opened in transit either by mistake or intentionally and the contents fell out or were removed. 

     I went through a situation like this once with a USPS shipment where I had use a USPS priority mal regional box that was sealed and duck taped to the extreme. I had the receipt from USPS where they had scanned the package which included the weight of the package when USPS took possession of the item. That information was provided to eBay and I still lost the case. I filed a police report with the buyers local police department, a case with USPS for mail fraud/theft and a internet crime complaint with the FBI but nothing ever came of that. 

     Most sellers are well aware of the risks of selling on eBay and most follow the first rule and that is never sell or post anything you are now willing to accept a loss on. I do sell internationally but utilize the eBay Global Shipping Center but I have several countries that I will not ship to and have blocked. I always check the shipping address, among other things, and Google it prior to getting the item ready to ship and have canceled several orders that went through freight forwarders, PO boxes or to an empty lot or abandoned building. As a seller about all you can do is take appropriate steps to protect yourself as best you can because eBay is no going to offer much in the way of assistance. 

[Anonymous]

Contact the freight forwarder and get evidence from them that the package was forwarded to a different address after they received it. Submit that to eBay on appeal. You should also let eBay know it's a fake police report and ask them to review that on appeal, as well.

[varebelrose]

The Delaware freight forwarder "empty box" scam, complete with fake police report, has hit many sellers recently. There are many, many posts here about that, it usually does not work out well for the sellers unfortunately.

[shn_electronics_llc]

I just got hit with same kind of scam.

Is there any updates on the case? We can’t just let those scammers get away like this? 

[katzrul15]

Maybe PM him to ask?

I am so very sorry you are dealing with his and DE.  We had 2 of those this year back to back - Maybe start a new thread and give us the facts and we can try and help you?

Good luck!

[vintagecraze50]

If this DELAWARE FREIGHT FORWARDING SCAM is getting out of hand perhaps every seller should check where this stuff is going and always cancel the sale when this happens. My thoughts are that this is going to cost Ebay a lot of cash since that freight forewarder has been a very busy place here for a long time. Maybe something will be done right on here if that happens. 

[shn_electronics_llc]

I'm pretty much having the same experenciece as the OP in this thread just different reshipping company. 

I don't think creating a new thread would do anything since people care less to those new threads with less replies and views.

I also don' think I could actually get any helps from here just like this thread.

I just want to keep this thread on the front page so that more people could be aware of the scams like this.

[vintagecraze50]

That Delaware FOREWARDER has been generating a lot of international shipments  for people here so, either they need to get their act together or do not ship to them  anymore if this place is causing a lot of problems lately.

[fashunu4eeuh]

“…2: Buyers are allowed to bypass no returns by claiming item is not as described (Good for buyer, bad for seller, especially if seller did nothing wrong)…”

This is correct, and represents one of the risks we all accept when selling here. To offset such losses, i write the potential costs into my business plan, so if it happens, i have my bases covered. In addition, i have a buyer-friendly return policy to prevent a determined buyer from choosing a NAD claim in order to force a return.

In retail, shrinkage is a fact of life. Some sellers use the “cookie jar” method to compensate for the occasional loss. That is, they add a few cents onto every transaction that goes into the proverbial cookie jar in case the item is lost or stolen.

It is true that in the case of freight forwarding, eBay policy states the buyer is not covered by the Money Back Guarantee. However, more recently, there have been claims opened by international buyers who have used forwarders and yet still won their cases. The policy hasn't changed but eBay’s practice of upholding that policy apparently has. Below is a link to the MBG rules, for anyone curious to read it.

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/ebay-money-back-guarantee-policy/ebay-money-back-guarantee-policy...

”Not covered:

• The buyer used third-party freight forwarding or mail redirection”

[marinermikes]

I quit selling here over this issue years ago.

[ittybitnot]

@ctx159753 

What your are describing is nothing new.  What the regular CS is advising is nothing new either, and the outcome you have received so far is totally predictable. 

This is a scam that is reported here almost daily now.  Up until recently the scam involved making some false claim regarding the item condition.  Then when they had to ship something back, they employed the "cheap trinket" scam where they either bought something from another website and had it sent to you or to an address in your zipcode to satisfy deliver confirmation for a return.  

Well that was entirely too much work, so they are now going directly for the "empty box" routine.  They may have to provide a "police report" to ebay, but a "fake" one will suffice and used to find against you.  eBay will no longer provide the victim seller a copy of this.  It is eBay's policies as well that make this a profitable undertaking by the criminals.  

Buyers serviced by the forwarders in Delaware are typically from Russia or Eastern Europe. Many sellers will refuse to ship, so they are sometimes employing those in Oregon. 

That being said, you still have hope:

First check to see if your "buyer" is still a registered user.  If they have already been given the "axe" by eBAy that information will help your case. 

Report the buyer for making a false claim.

See if you can contact the forwarder by phone or email (as the shipper with the tracking) to check to see if the parcel has arrived and has been forwarded.  If you can get an email confirmation, good, if not at least get the contact information i.e. name/phone number of the person you spoke with.  

Do not deal with the regular customer service any longer.  Use the big blue message button found on this page to send the information regarding this transaction.  Include your name, contact information, user ID, transaction number, item number etc. and mention it was sent to the freight forwarder in New Castle (provide the address) , and any documentation you were able to obtain from the forwarding business.  If they haven't responded yet, just say you are still waiting. 

https://www.facebook.com/eBayForBusiness

The eBay staff that monitors this message system is well aware of this issue.  We refer quite a few sellers in your exact position to them every week.  These people are very knowledgeable AND have the authority to help you. 

Let us know how it works out.  

[duffy4444]

   What seller joined Ebay so they could be embroiled in a hassle with Ebay bots automatically refunding the buyer, bad and conflicting CSR information, filing police reports, getting the USPS fraud unit and even the FBI involved in order to get their transaction successfully completed? NO ONE.

   I sell and ship to just a few select international destinations (mainly Canada, the UK and Europe, Australia & NZ, and Japan), but ONLY directly - not thru a freight forwarder. If I detect a freight forwarder is in the middle potentially gumming up the works, I immediately cancel the sale, refund the money, and put the buyer on my Blocked Buyer List.

   Before I ship an item, here's how I detect that a freight forwarder is involved:

   On EVERY sale that comes to my in box, I first click on the feedback number of the buyer. If they are based in a country I don't ship to (usually Russia or Eastern Europe or So. America), and the shipping address is in the US, there is a freight forwarder involved. That results in my immediate cancellation of the order using "problem with buyers address" and a refund of their payment. Period! - Even if the buyer is innocently simply trying to purchase an item without knowledge of the international scams going on. I then send a courteous message to the buyer thanking them for their interest in my items, and stating that I'm sorry I cannot ship to their country either directly or indirectly.

   Why do I do this? Read down a few hundred posts on this selling forum and on the shipping forum, and see all the complaints and scams that have entrapped sellers embroiled in a freight forwarder hassle. I have no desire to invite a potential scam or other international hassle and the heartache and money loss involved on top of the loss of the item. I'm here to sell, not waste a lot of time playing detective or trying to reverse Ebay decisions that automatically favor the buyer when they clearly shouldn't.

   Some other sellers will say that they have had no problems with freight forwarders, but they've been lucky so far. The time will come when they will have problems, and they will be wasting a lot of selling energy putting out fires that could have been avoided.

   Peace of mind and the smooth-running of my business model is very important to me. So far - very successfully.

Cheers, Duffy