eBay

itiswhatitis · ‎04-10-2019

Attention Fellow Sellers:

Keep your eyes on your Paypal accounts, your email accounts, and your ebay mail.

Today I received a notice from ebay stating that one of the packages I shipped out over a week ago had an incorrect shipping label attached and that the USPS charged an additional $4.89 to my paypal account.

Now then, here is the long and short of it in detail...... shipped a few trading cards in a 6x9 bubble mailer and it weighed 2 ounces (1.9 ounces according to the scale at the local USPS office where I dropped it off). I marked the shipping label as being 4 ounces as I always allow an extra ounce or two on all my packages. Besides, 1 to 4 ounces in a bubble mailer all cost the exact same amount of money to ship regardless of the weight you put on it between 1 and 4 ounces.

In any event, paid the 1st class postage fee, slapped on the label, took it to the post office to be shipped, they weighed it, and it shipped with no issues.

Now today, 5 days after the package was received by the buyer, I get the email from eBay stating the USPS deemed the package's label to be incorrect and slapped a PRIORITY MAIL label on it and charged me the extra $4.89 for which I can jump through hoops to dispute it with the USPS to get my $ back.

Seems to me that there is absolutely no way they could have done this by error. Seems like a direct ploy to just charge your account an extra fee with the hopes that you do not notice or do not care because you are too busy doing other things.

So then..... I am alerting all other sellers to watch out for this as you could be losing $$$ you work hard to earn all because the USPS is randomly overcharging you for a service you did not receive or ask for.

Bottom line..... Sellers Beware!

itiswhatitis · ‎04-11-2019

@berserkerplanet wrote:

Nope. Not anywhere in the DMM = not the rule. A kraft or poly bubble mailer under 3/4" thick that meets the other size requirements, and the flexibility and uniformity (+/- 1/4") requirements is a retail flat not a parcel.

DMM trumps uninformed Postmaster opinion.

Nope. Not anywhere in the DMM = not the rule. Retail flats have no non-machinable criteria (they are automatically machinable by the definition of a flat), and if a PO chooses to toss a flat mailpiece in the non-machinable or parcel stream, it does not make that flat a package.

You may keep trying to rationalize your opinion, just to make yourself feel like you are more knowledgeable, hoping to feel that you are correct and all knowing. But that there DMM that you worship as your Bible, you can pretty much use as toilet paper since 99.9% of the postal employees do.

I will listen to who you refer to as an "Uninformed Postmaster" any day when the words that come from his/her lips are backed by that of more than one Postal Inspector, and 99.9% of every USPS service desk employee across the grid. After all, these are the individuals who carry out the shipping process from point A to point B and know far more about the system than what you are reading in the DMM.

Thankfully knowing several USPS employees who actually work in the trenches of the system of decisions when it comes to deciding what goes in the sorting machines and what does not is all I need to know to tell me that the wonderful DMM that you cherish so dearly, is hardly used as a guide to anything other than "required" reference material needed to be printed by law.

And finally, judging by what I have been selling and shipping for 25 years straight, I believe I know more about what my shipments are referred to and considered, plus how they are handled by the USPS than yourself. With as many of these style shipments as I have shipped in 25 years, and this only happening to 1 item shipped, I would say that, YES.... The USPS owes me a refund for their error. Why you ask? Because my item shipped was a "First Class Mail Parcel"......NOT a flat as you continue to try and make it.

Now then..... pull up a chair as it is time to put class in session AND do so by using the DMM since you treasure it so highly....

a) DMM 201c Quick Service Guide for Physical Standards For Flats states:

" Dimensions:

Minimum size : more than 11-1/2 inches long, or more than 6-1/8 inches high, or more than 1/4 inch thick.

Maximum size : 15 inches long, 12 inches high, and 3/4 inch thick. "

b) DMM 201.4.0 (4.3) Minimum Flexibility For Flat Size Pieces states:

"All flats shall be tested as follows:

Place the piece with the length parallel to the edge of a flat surface and extend the piece halfway off the surface.

Press down on the piece at a point 1 inch from the outer edge, in the center of the piece‘s length, exerting steady pressure.
The piece is not flexible if it cannot bend at least 1 inch vertically without being damaged.
The piece is flexible if it can bend at least 1 inch vertically without being damaged and it does not contain a rigid insert. No further testing is necessary."

Now then, the package that was up charged measured approximately 5x8" and was close to 3/4" thick, but not more, weighed officially 1.9 ounces ( so 2 ounces, which I marked as 4 ounces) and if it had been tested for flexibility, it WOULD NOT have been able to pass the flexibility text due to the facts that..... a) by pressing down you would have hit a solid mass of rigid matter, not being able to allow the parcel to bend in half by 1 inch or else the product inside would have been damaged, thus automatically making it a FIRST CLASS MAIL PARCEL by definition of DMM Flexibility Tests 4.7

"4.7 Ineligible Flat-Size Pieces

Flat-size mail pieces that do not meet the eligibility standards must pay the applicable prices as follows:

Flat-size pieces that do not meet flexibility or uniform thickness or polywrap eligibility standards are considered parcels and must be prepared as parcels and pay the applicable prices as follows:

First-Class Mail—parcel prices."

Lesson over & Class dismissed!!!

No need for you to reply with further rebuttal, since it is a debate you cannot win. I have more than proved my point, even by using the official DMM book. The bottom line is some USPS employee either made an error in judgment and slapped me with an up charge, or blatantly slapped me with an up charge. In either case, they were WRONG and now owe me $4.89 back. Surely I am not the only one this has happened to. Just so happens that I have brought it to light and have warned my fellow sellers to be aware of it.

Have a great rest of the week and best wishes with future sales BerzerkerPlanet!

twnpopcards · ‎04-11-2019

@berserkerplanet wrote:
It sounds more like it is not a glitch, that this is user error, and OP is shipping FCM flats with FCP labels on them - which doesn't fly - they get bumped to Priority in that case.

6.9 bubble mailer with a couple of cards in it - likely less than 3/4" thick, is uniform, and is flexible - that is a flat and does not qualify as a package.

4oz shipment to zone 5:
FCP = $2.76 gets bumped to 1 lb PM = $7.65 → difference = $4.89 which is what OP was upcharged.

Sorry but those have always qualified as FCP and all of us in this category have been shipping this method for years. The rule they have thrown at us for years is that if the padded envelope is over 1/4" thick that the item must be shipped as a FCP.

itiswhatitis · ‎04-11-2019

@twnpopcards wrote:
@berserkerplanet wrote:
It sounds more like it is not a glitch, that this is user error, and OP is shipping FCM flats with FCP labels on them - which doesn't fly - they get bumped to Priority in that case.

6.9 bubble mailer with a couple of cards in it - likely less than 3/4" thick, is uniform, and is flexible - that is a flat and does not qualify as a package.

4oz shipment to zone 5:
FCP = $2.76 gets bumped to 1 lb PM = $7.65 → difference = $4.89 which is what OP was upcharged.
Sorry but those have always qualified as FCP and all of us in this category have been shipping this method for years. The rule they have thrown at us for years is that if the padded envelope is over 1/4" thick that the item must be shipped as a FCP.

Exactly! Thank you very much for the backup on this. If the USPS tried to charge Priority Mail rate for all card sellers, then all card sellers would be out of business as no buyer would ever pay that. What the USPS really needs to do is create a Small Package category as they have for all the overseas sellers in Far East Countries. They pay pennies to ship anything over to the USA. However we are gouged yearly and we live here!

Thanks again TWNPOPCARDS for the backup and verification of how we ship and what classification our shipments are considered thru the USPS. Best wishes for continued sales and have a great weekend!

berserkerplanet · ‎04-11-2019

>>rule they have thrown at us for years is that if the padded envelope is over 1/4" thick that the item must be shipped as a FCP

Again, not according to the DMM.

Potential First Class Mail items over 1/4" thick are not letters, and are are flats unless disqualified by other criteria, and over 3/4" are packages unless disqualified by other size/weight criteria.

Nothing anywhere about padded mailers being excluded.

berserkerplanet · ‎04-11-2019

>>Now then, the package that was up charged measured approximately 5x8" and was close to 3/4" thick, but not more,
>>weighed officially 1.9 ounces ( so 2 ounces, which I marked as 4 ounces) and if it had been tested for flexibility, it WOULD
>>NOT have been able to pass the flexibility text due to the facts that....

For those dimensions and characteristics the package would have been a First Class Pkg.

Unfortunately, the (erroneous) information in your original post which is what I have been responding to
>>shipped a few trading cards in a 6x9 bubble mailer and it weighed 2 ounces (1.9 ounces according to the scale at
>>the local USPS office where I dropped it off). I marked the shipping label as being 4 ounces

isn't what you are arguing now in your latest "lesson". Nothing in your OP indicates what you shipped wasn't a flat. Says nothing about non-uniform or not flexible (no indication that rigid toploaders or anything similar were used). And the stated dollar amounts exactly fit the flat theory.

Having looked at your sold item values, and the ranting tone of your OP, I speculated that you just tossed some low value cards in the stated 6x9 mailer with maybe minimal sleeves and that APV flagged it as incorrect mail class.

Had you paid attention to detail, and stated the actual critical, and non-trivial information about the shipment, this could have been avoided. You mentioned nothing further about the actual facts regarding the package in question until minimally in post 26, and finally in post 31 with the real dimensions and characteristics of that shipment (the pkg described in post 26 does qualify as First Class Package per the DMM)

twnpopcards · ‎04-11-2019

@berserkerplanet wrote:
>>Now then, the package that was up charged measured approximately 5x8" and was close to 3/4" thick, but not more,
>>weighed officially 1.9 ounces ( so 2 ounces, which I marked as 4 ounces) and if it had been tested for flexibility, it WOULD
>>NOT have been able to pass the flexibility text due to the facts that....

For those dimensions and characteristics the package would have been a First Class Pkg.

Unfortunately, the (erroneous) information in your original post which is what I have been responding to
>>shipped a few trading cards in a 6x9 bubble mailer and it weighed 2 ounces (1.9 ounces according to the scale at
>>the local USPS office where I dropped it off). I marked the shipping label as being 4 ounces

isn't what you are arguing now in your latest "lesson". Nothing in your OP indicates what you shipped wasn't a flat. Says nothing about non-uniform or not flexible (no indication that rigid toploaders or anything similar were used). And the stated dollar amounts exactly fit the flat theory.

Having looked at your sold item values, and the ranting tone of your OP, I speculated that you just tossed some low value cards in the stated 6x9 mailer with maybe minimal sleeves and that APV flagged it as incorrect mail class.

Had you paid attention to detail, and stated the actual critical, and non-trivial information about the shipment, this could have been avoided. You mentioned nothing further about the actual facts regarding the package in question until minimally in post 26, and finally in post 31 with the real dimensions and characteristics of that shipment (the pkg described in post 26 does qualify as First Class Package per the DMM)

Unfortunately the OP didn't consider it necessry to state the facts about the toploaders as that is considered common knowledge in the card industry. If he had complained about a PWE being upgraded then I probably would have also made a similar assumption as many Sellers try to go super cheap when using a PWE and do not put the items in a rigid top loader, which oftentimes results in them being damaged.

Personally I ship all items in at a minimum a rigid top loader, even in a PWE but i add the additional ounce stamp or use the non machinable postage stamp so that I am in compliance with Postal Regs. Lesson learned if I ever have a similar complaint to include that the items were shipped in rigid top loaders or an acryllic case.

twnpopcards · ‎04-11-2019

@itiswhatitis wrote:
@twnpopcards wrote:
@berserkerplanet wrote:
It sounds more like it is not a glitch, that this is user error, and OP is shipping FCM flats with FCP labels on them - which doesn't fly - they get bumped to Priority in that case.

6.9 bubble mailer with a couple of cards in it - likely less than 3/4" thick, is uniform, and is flexible - that is a flat and does not qualify as a package.

4oz shipment to zone 5:
FCP = $2.76 gets bumped to 1 lb PM = $7.65 → difference = $4.89 which is what OP was upcharged.
Sorry but those have always qualified as FCP and all of us in this category have been shipping this method for years. The rule they have thrown at us for years is that if the padded envelope is over 1/4" thick that the item must be shipped as a FCP.
Exactly! Thank you very much for the backup on this. If the USPS tried to charge Priority Mail rate for all card sellers, then all card sellers would be out of business as no buyer would ever pay that. What the USPS really needs to do is create a Small Package category as they have for all the overseas sellers in Far East Countries. They pay pennies to ship anything over to the USA. However we are gouged yearly and we live here!

Thanks again TWNPOPCARDS for the backup and verification of how we ship and what classification our shipments are considered thru the USPS. Best wishes for continued sales and have a great weekend!

@itiswhatitis

Actually this is not our governments fault per se. The rates that China pays is because the Universal Postal Union has considered China to still be a 3rd world economy and has forced the USPS to only charge them what a package coming from Gabon is charged. There was a lot of complaining done about that and Trump issued an order that things change or the US would withdraw from the UPU, which was done last October. However it takes a year for the withdrawal to take effect so China is still taking advantage of things while they can. The Chinese government also subsidizes their postage so in effect their shipping to the US is free.

The UPU held a special meeting last year in September to visit this issue and as most politicians and diplomats do was to decide to table the issue for 2 more years so as to not upset China. Trump then ordered that we withdraw from the UPU and probably at the beginning of next year the rates for China to ship to the USA are going to be at least as high as it costs us to ship to them, which is over $10 for the first few ounces and goes up drastically from there. I highly doubt that we will see any of the savings from this measure, but at least USPS will no longer be losing at least $0.50 on each E-packet that they deliver, which includes tracking anywhere in the USA.

I do hope that this will drastically slow down the increases that USPS throws at us and if it does not i would highly recommend contacting your Congress representatives to voice your complaints as they do still have control over the increases that USPS is allowed, even though they are not technically a government agency any longer.

itiswhatitis · ‎04-12-2019

Thank you. I personally did not feel the need to state they were in top loaders because the 5k+ of us who ship cards know this as standard practice. At the same time, I know as a fact that the USPS employees do not use the flexibility test on 99.9% of packages sent thru the system. Once again, I know this to be true from a conversation with 2 Postal Inspectors and 1 employee who works on the sorting line. They simply do not have the time or man power to do this. The rule is there simply because at times a "questionable" package may need to be checked or damage occurs to a package and the explanation is that the flexibility test was used and "we apologize for the damage". I am not saying that here or there a stringent employee does not try to perform the test on as many packages as possible. But it just does not happen that often to state the test as "normal" or "mandatory".

Was on the phone with the USPS verification personnel yesterday and they are looking into the matter as both the employees I spoke with stated that indeed this looks to be totally an error on their part and if so, they will indeed refund the up charge. I will update when the final decision comes to pass.

itiswhatitis · ‎04-12-2019

What the USPS really needs to do is create a Small Package category as they have for all the overseas sellers in Far East Countries. They pay pennies to ship anything over to the USA. However we are gouged yearly and we live here!

Thanks again TWNPOPCARDS for the backup and verification of how we ship and what classification our shipments are considered thru the USPS. Best wishes for continued sales and have a great weekend!
@itiswhatitis

Actually this is not our governments fault per se. The rates that China pays is because the Universal Postal Union has considered China to still be a 3rd world economy and has forced the USPS to only charge them what a package coming from Gabon is charged. There was a lot of complaining done about that and Trump issued an order that things change or the US would withdraw from the UPU, which was done last October. However it takes a year for the withdrawal to take effect so China is still taking advantage of things while they can. The Chinese government also subsidizes their postage so in effect their shipping to the US is free.

The UPU held a special meeting last year in September to visit this issue and as most politicians and diplomats do was to decide to table the issue for 2 more years so as to not upset China. Trump then ordered that we withdraw from the UPU and probably at the beginning of next year the rates for China to ship to the USA are going to be at least as high as it costs us to ship to them, which is over $10 for the first few ounces and goes up drastically from there. I highly doubt that we will see any of the savings from this measure, but at least USPS will no longer be losing at least $0.50 on each E-packet that they deliver, which includes tracking anywhere in the USA.

I do hope that this will drastically slow down the increases that USPS throws at us and if it does not i would highly recommend contacting your Congress representatives to voice your complaints as they do still have control over the increases that USPS is allowed, even though they are not technically a government agency any longer.

Thank you very kindly for the explanation on the Small Packet situation. I was unaware of this as I honestly do not follow politics and have little time to follow more than the basic local news station. This information you have provided should help the masses who have been wondering the same things about the situation as I have. This was a great post you just made and I appreciate it.

Once this is followed through, then this should also keep more sales of merchandise here in the USA instead of foreign countries since they can basically undercut any and every single USA business due to the little to know amount of shipping they have to pay to get the items here to us. This will be great for the USA economy and for any seller from the States, things will get more competitive and in their favor.

Thanks again for your input as it was very educative.

gamersbaystore · ‎04-12-2019

4 oz. is not over limit with first-class, it has to be 16 oz. or more to disqualify. I ship games at an average of 6 oz. first-class every day.

itiswhatitis · ‎04-12-2019

And after filing a dispute claim, within 24 hours..... refund was given.

toybrats · ‎04-12-2019

Did you tape the boxes together? THat is a No-no.

toybrats · ‎04-12-2019

This is so true. I also stuff my flat envelops with pieces of rolled bubble wrap to make them thicker.

micsett-99 · ‎04-12-2019

@coolections wrote:
I believe your mistake was marking the package at a 4 oz. weight which is over the limit for 1st class. Someone else will chime in to tell me I am wrong if so.

You couldn't be more wrong. 16 oz is the cut off for 1st class when you are buying labels on eBay. So 17oz would necessitate it going Priority..

twnpopcards · ‎04-27-2019

@micsett-99 wrote:
@coolections wrote:
I believe your mistake was marking the package at a 4 oz. weight which is over the limit for 1st class. Someone else will chime in to tell me I am wrong if so.
You couldn't be more wrong. 16 oz is the cut off for 1st class when you are buying labels on eBay. So 17oz would necessitate it going Priority..

Actually the cutoff for First Class Package is 15.99 ounces. Once the item hits 16+ ounces it no longer qualifies for First Class Package rates. At that point the majority of Sellers then opt for Priority shipping unless the items qualify for media mail. Be very careful when using Media Mail though as what qualifies is very restricted and just because a Seller has gotten away with it in the past, if the PO decides to check the contents of that package and deem it to not qualify they will change the postage rate to Priority Mail and charge the difference to your account. This can get very expensive very quickly because they use the Retail Rates for all adjustments.